Post-WCG Life and Theology ARCHIVES

A New home for the blog

2007-09-08T23:39:00.000-07:00

For those loyal readers like Douglas Becker, FYI Again and Richard Burkard (and of course many other lurkers out there!), I have decide to write newer posts on WordPress.com at http://lifeafterwcg2.wordpress.com. This blog will still be around forever but only for archival purposes, thus the "new" name here will be Post WCG Life and Theology Archives. See you all at WordPress.com!

Intelligent Quote of the Day from FYI Again

2007-09-04T20:25:00.000-07:00

It all depends on whether your perspective is that the TGCOL (Love God, Love Neighbor) is a synopsis of the Ten. Obviously as you pointed out some of the commandments couldn't have applied before God created other beings.

I would also submit that they were unnecessary prior to Lucifer's rebellion. Apparently evil did not exist previously. Jesus called Satan the father of lies - which I interpret to mean he originated the practice. He also called Satan a "murderer from the beginning", which based on other passages I take to mean from the beginning of his rebellion and not from the beginning of his creation, after all, he was "perfect" in all his ways "until iniquity was found" in him.

I can only assume - the Bible doesn't go there - that the angels were given instructions on conduct right from the start. What precisely that code of conduct might have been there simply isn't any way to know. But since God doesn't change I would assume they contained the same fundamental principles of love towards God and love towards others.

It is fascinating that this whole argument - whether the 10 Commandments are part of the NC - was not really an issue in Christianity at large until the SDA's (and later the WCG) made an issue of the Sabbath.

Prior to that time Christianity was more or less united in a belief that the 10 were the fundamental code of conduct for Christians. The Sabbath was almost universally presumed to be Sunday - in fact it still is in many denominations and in the minds of many believers.

Even now many sincere, devout Christians if asked whether or not they keep the 4th commandment (assuming they even know what it is) would reply "Yes, I go to Church every Sunday".

Why else do you think there has been so much controversy in recent decades over the 10 Commandments being posted in court rooms? They still hold a place of honor in many denominations. Not all of them try to toss them out, or equate them with tassels and mixed fabric garments.

The main proponents of "the 10 Commandments are done away" concept are either former Sabbatarians or individuals and/or denominations who for one reason or another are strongly opposed to the idea of a 7th day Sabbath.

The Sabbath is the one great indigestible lump - the one thing that most people simply cannot or will not accept. And it is only when the Sabbath becomes an issue that the Ten Commandments as a whole become controversial in any way. Absent the Sabbath, the nine other Commandments are nearly universally accepted by Christianity.

All in all, it's just "pick and choose" of a different sort.

---FYI Again critiquing a particular WCG Alumni post making strong assertions that the ten commandments are NOT the eternal ten!

Bill Maher's update on his documentary

2007-08-21T20:24:00.000-07:00

From Larry King on CNN, August 14th.

Amen again J!!!

2007-08-06T21:42:00.000-07:00

J, of Shadows of WCG has a new video comparing the words of HWA and the Apostle Paul. Who will you pick as the final authority? A word of warning: those who can't stand the hymns of Dwight Armstrong just might want to turn the volume down---but anyway volume or not, J does a great job as always. Thumbs up again!

36 years ago this week, the Taylor family bought the stairway to heaven

2007-08-05T23:58:00.000-07:00

It is around this time my mom , young in her very early twenties brought me, a one and a year old kid to the Worldwide Church of God back in 1971. My brother was added to this rollercoaster ride when he came on the scene in 1974. He was the first one with the smarts to see through the authoritarian nonsense in Worldwide and boldly left at age 14 back in 1988. My mom saw through the nonsense of Joe Jr.'s administration and left in 1997. I was finally tired of the confusion and the unnecessary bullying that was perpetrated by the same leadership. I followed suit and left the rollercoaster ride in 1998. To commemorate a sad beginning that began 36 years ago this month, I have courtesy Youtube.com Led Zepplin's Stairway To Heaven. Believe you me, you get involved into a deceitful religion like Armstrongism, you are truly "buying" the stairway to heaven---whereas Jesus Christ, 2000 years ago paid that price. The sad fact there ares some who are "offended" at the gift and have a need to pay for it. Stay tuned in October when I will have another concert video commemorating my exodus from Worldwide back in '98. Hint, it deals with taking steps of never allowing no one to deceive you ever again in your lifetime.

What makes one an Armstrongite by Koey Koala

2007-08-05T21:47:00.000-07:00

This was excerpted by Mark Tabladillo's Jesus Loves Fellowship based on a poll that I started which asked , "What makes one an Armstrongite" back in 2004.

---Editor, Post WCG Life and Theology

I think Armstrongism could be summarized by listing the 10 major areas of theology and his particular twisted views on each of them:
1. Theology of Armstrongism - God a "family" not limited to Father and Son (orthodoxy teaches one God; Father, Son & Holy Spirit)
2. Christology of Armstrongism - Jesus "qualified" to become ruler (orthodoxy teaches he was already God made flesh and so did not need to qualify)
3. Pneumatology of Armstrongism - Holy Spirit is a "force" not God (orthodoxy teaches God is Spirit, God is Holy, God is Holy Spirit)
4. Angelology of Armstrongism - close to orthodox
5. Anthropology of Armstrongism - saved humans to become God (orthodoxy teaches saved humans are to live in eternity with God)
6. Hamartiology of Armstrongism - sin refers to small narrow selection from the OT laws (orthodoxy teaches sin is missing the mark, lawlessness)
7. Soteriology of Armstrongism - salvation by OT works and offered to most in a 100 year period (orthodox churches detail our election, calling, regeneration, conversion, union with Christ, justification, adoption, sanctification, perseverance and glorification in far greater depth than Armstrongism even considered)
8. Bibliology of Armstrongism - Bible a coded book unlocked only by Sabbath-keeping and British Israelism (orthodoxy teaches the Bible is understood by illumination of the Holy Spirit & British Israelism is a fairy tale)
9. Ecclesiology of Armstrongism - the Church at large is not of God, because they do not keep the OT Sabbath. Herbert claimed he was the only apostle for 1800 years and dictated a monarchial church government (orthodoxy teaches that the Church consists of all who have the Holy Spirit in them, not a fleshly observance of a physical day)
10. Eschatology of Armstrongism - post-tribulation, premillennial, literal 1000 years, Jesus returning in various years from 1940's to 1970's, well er "in our lifetime," key to prophecy is the fable of Anglo-Israelism (orthodoxy varies on this point, tho most believe the 1000 years is symbolic because apocryphal literature is a symbolic not a literal genre)

An oldie but a goodie from Brian Knowles

2007-08-04T22:35:00.001-07:00

You know him as the contributors on the Association of Christian Development website. For those who remember waaay back was a minister in the Worldwide Church of God as far back in the 1970's. Of course he has moved on from the WCG eversince and has been a successful Christian writer. He even has some articles in the Church of God (Seventh Day) magazine The Bible Advocate. Also he is a fellow Canadian! We probably are both fellow Conservatives, but he is more of neo-conservative Blue Tory and I am more center-right Red Tory (let my fellow Canadians understand this) but I have enjoyed his writings. One of his older writings when he was with Worldwide was in the Good News magazine titled, "Why Aren't You More Christ Centered?" David Covington had this article reprinted on his website which is now defunct but this timeless article is on Post WCG Life and Theology forever!

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GOOD NEWS February 1976

Why Aren't You More Christ Centered?

By Brian Knowles

With the possible exception of a very few Armstrongisms toward the conclusion, this article could be published in the 1990's [and 2000's] WCG Plain Truth magazine. The idea that the new covenant changes were just revealed to the WCG since Joseph Tkach Sr. is simply not accurate and amounts to propaganda. There have been two periods of great reform and doctrinal upheaval in the WCG, but the complete control of the hierarchy reversed the changes of the 70's. It is our belief the WCG changes of the 90's are no more secure unless the governmental structure is actually changed too.

---David Covington, 1997

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Are you ashamed of Jesus Christ? Are you afraid to mention His name in conversation? Is Jesus Christ at the heart and core of your Christian life? Or have you relegated the name of Christ to the realm of maudlin, sentimental, mushy "religious" conversation?

for whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father wioth the holy angels" (Mark 8.38)

These powerful and indicting words of Jesus Christ of Nazereth ring down through the centureies with fearsome import! Are you ashamed to mention your Savior, your King, your Lord and Master in everyday conversation? Are you embarrased by a discussion concerning Christ, your High Priest, over dinner in a fine restaurant? What part does the Captain of your Salvation play in your daily life and activity?

These are critical questions.

Is it "Protestant" to talk about Jesus Christ as though He were a living entity who occupies a central part in your life? Why should professing Christians squirm at the mention of their loving elder brother in the Faith?

Make no mistake about it---if you expect to be saved you had better acknowledge Christ in your life! There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved(Acts 4:12). Jesus Christ alone can rescue you from the inevitable penaly of eternal death which all of us incurred (John 3:16). He is the only hope you and I have of immortality.

If there is no ressurected Christ---no Messiah---then your faith is in vain (see I Cor.15:12-20). Apart from Christ all religion is meaningless. There is no way to overemphasize the importance of the person of Jesus Christ to the Christian! Words alone are not sufficient to magnifiy the supremacy, the glory and the meaning of Christ to those who would fulfill their ultimate human destiny!

Those who not acknowledge the transcendant supremacy of in every sphere are not Christians at all!

The apostle Paul was perhaps the most Christ-centered individual who ever walked the face of the earth. He wrote, "For to me to live IS CHRIST..." (Phil. 1:21). He was totally preoccupied with Christ! Paul was, in a sense, obsessed with Jesus Christ! Nothing was more important than to preach Christ. Paul wrote to the Corinthian Church; "For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified" (I Cor 2.2). Christ, and His life, death and resurrection occupied the centrality of Paul's preaching and doctrine.

Paul, the other apostles, and the early first-century Christians were conscious of a continuing, living, relationshop with Jesus Christ throught the vehicle of the Holy Spirit. John wrote; "And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us" (I John 3.24). Christ actually takes up residence with in the Christian life through the Holy Spirit! Paul wrote that "Christ in you" is "the hope if glory" (Col 1:27). Apart form the indwelling of Christ there is no hope. There is nothing to look foward to but oblivion. But with Christ there is everything to hope for!

What makes you righteous?

No human being is righteous in God's sight of and by himself. It is the righteousness of Christ that makes any of us clean. We are all sinners ---withou exception. All of us have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. We are all dooomed to pay the penalty for our sins which is eternal death in the lake of fire (Rom. 3:23; 1 John 1:8, 10 etc.). We have all consigned to eternal dath by our own sins against God.

But God has provided a way by which we can be made righteous in spite of ourselves! Christ said, " I am the way, and the truth and the life..."(John 14:6). Through Jesus Christ we can all be made righteous. There is no other way!

But exactgly how does all of this work? Just how are we saved by Christ? The answer is: we are justified by faith in Christ's sacrifice!

We are told in Romans 3: 26 that God justifies "him who has faith in Jesus". It is through Christ we obtain access to God's mercy and grace. That is why He is "the way"! "Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have pace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand and rejoice in hope of the glory of God" (Rom 5:1-2).

Christ, and Christ alone, is the source of our salvation. It is He who is working out God's great purpose on earth. That is why he is called the "captain of our salvation" (Heb. 2:1 KJV). Those who would be saved must be willing to recongize, acknowledge and admit that Jesus is their "Lord" or "Master" so far as salvation is concerned. There is no other door through which one may pass in order to obtain mercy, justification and, ultimately, salvation.

Law-keeping Saves No One

One cannot be saved, for example, by the Law. Law keeping makes no one righteous---"For no human being will be justified in his sight by owkrs of the law..."(Rom. 3:20). The law merely points out what sin is (verse 20, last part). "Whosoever committeth sin transgressseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law" (I John 3:4, KJV). The law simply convicts all of us of sin! We are condemned by the law as sinners. None has ever obeyed that law perfectly but Christ. "For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all" (Rom. 11:32).

The law, then, can do no more than identify sin for what it is and condemn us all for committing it! Once we have broken the law, no amount of future law keeping cannot make one righteous. It cannot justify for past sins. It cannot save you from the penalty of past violations.

Christ alone can do that.

Our eternal salvation is entirely in Christ hands: "if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's" (Rom.14:8).

To the true Christian, Christ is everything. Paul said, "He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption" (I Cor.1:30). Any righteousness the Christian may possess is not his own but is of christ. It is Jesus who sets us apart (sanctifies us) and buys us back from certain death (redeems us). We are purchased by His blood (I Cor 6:19-20) Our future is entirely in His hands.

Only One Mediator

Jesus Christ, not any human being, is the head of the Church which is His own body (Eph 5:23; Col 1:18). He leads the Chruch through His Holy Spirit, There is no human mediator or intercessor between between God and man, "For there is no one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (I Tim 2:5). The Christian's relationship with God and with Christ is a direct one. It is not "filtered" through men.

We are accountable to Christ for our actions and our sins in this physical life. It is He who will judge "the secrets of men" at the last day. No man should be allowed to rob us of our crown of righteousness which will be granted at Christ's return (Rev. 3:11). We must maintain a direct, personal, one-on-one relationship with our Savior! Certainly Christ has His true ministers (servants), but there is no true "Vicar of Christ" in God's scheme of things according to the Bible.

A word of qualification is necessary at this point. The fact that each of us should have a personal, one-on-one relationship with God does not mean that we should isolate ourselves as individuals from the Christian community. It does not imply that we should become "independent" Christians. Fellowship is a very important and necessary part of the Christian life. We should not forsake "the assembling ourselves together, as the manner of some is" (Heb. 10:25, KJV).

Christians are expected to "come together" in congregational meetings (I Cor. 11:18, 20, etc.). We are to meet in the fellowship of Christ and the Holy Spirt. Where two or three are gatthered together in Christ's name He is among them (Matt 18:20). Whenever possible, those who have been begotten by the Holy Spirit should seek out fellow Christians and assemble with them in worship services. The Worldwide Church of God does hold wekly service around the world. For furhter information, please see the box entitled, "If You'd Like To Know More" on page 29 of this issue.

Saved by Christ

The Christian must internalize his belief and his faith in christ. god first calls the candidate for the Kingdom, brings him to repentence and baptism, then gives him the gift of the Holy Spirit. Once begotten, the Christian walks in "newness of life" (Rom.6:4) Now his life, to use Paul's phraseology (Col 3:3) is "hidden" in Christ. He trusts implicitly in Jesus Christ to save him. He knows and believes that it is only by faith in Christ's shed blodd that he can be justified for sins. He looks to no other source for salvation, His confidence is in the Son of God who lives to make intercession for the saints (Heb. 7:25) He know that "...We are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God" (Rom 5:9).

Those who have God's Spirit know that salvation, in the ultimate sense , is a yet future event. "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life" (Rom. 5:10). The blood of Christ "cleanses us from all sin"(I John 1:7). We are reconciled to God through Christ, but we are not saved in the ultimate sense. We look forward to receiving the promise of eternal life at the ressurection (I John 2:25; I Cor, 15:51-54).

All of this according to God's great purpose. It is all done in accordance with a pre-ordained plan. That purpose is being worked out under the personal direction of Jesus Christ, "For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in christ as a plan for the, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth" (Eph.1:9-10).

Jesus Christ is at the heart of this plan. He is the focal point of it. The entire purpose of the human creation of god is to be found in Christ. Therefore, to truly have faith in Christ (and all that it implies!) is to have eternal life! To be ashamed of Christ, to minimize the importance of His great office, to place Him anywhere but in the very center of your thinking, is to reject Him.

Nothing and no one is more important than Jesus the Savior! He alone holds the key that unlocks the door to eternity for every human being that has ever lived or died.

The gospel is a message about Christ and His coming government (Isa.9:6-7). He is at its center. He is described as Savior of all mankind and its coming King of kings and Lord or lords. He will rule over all the earth in the world tomorrow. Ultimately, He will unite all things in Himself and in God the Father. God will be "all in all" (I Cor.15:28, KJV).

Paul, realizing the sheer magnificence of God's marvelous plan of salvation through Christ, was moved to write : "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: It is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also the Greek" (Rom. 1:16).

Will you be ashamed of Christ?

The Offices and Titles of Jesus Christ

God. "But of the son he says, Thy throne, O 'God, is for ever and ever" (Heb.1:8)

Mediator. "And to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel" (Heb 12:24).

King of kings. "...For he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful" (Rev.17:14).

Apostle. "Therefore, holy brethren, who share in the heavenly call, consdier Jesus the apostle and high priest of our confession" (Heb. 3:1).

Deliverer. "And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob" (Rom. 11:26).

Master. "Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ" (Matt. 23:10).

Captain of our salvation. "for it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings" (Heb. 2:10 KJV).

High Priest. "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come..." (Heb.9:1)

Counselor. "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder and his name will be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God,Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Isa. 9:6)

Savior. "To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior" (Titus 1:4).

Judge. "And he commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that he is the one ordained by God to be judge of the living and the dead" (Acts 10:42).

Lamb of God. "The next day he (John the Baptist) saw Jesus coming toward him,a nd said, Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29)

Advocate. "My little children, I am writting this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (I John 2:1)

Pastor Neil Earle's two cents on the Holy Days and the Christian

2007-08-04T21:59:00.000-07:00

After mentioning about Richard Burkard and Dr.Garr reminding me a bit of my former Pastor Neil Earle (and Rush), Anne Hanna has a comment on Neil Earle's summary on the Holy Days which was recently in his congregation's (Glendora, California)webpage.

Here's a commentary by Neil Earle on www.glendorachurch.org :
What in the world is Neil's point here? Is it okay for members to go ahead and celebrate tabernacles as an everlasting ordinance if they are kept in Christ, using these themes? Certainly not the message I have heard elsewhere in the WCG.
What's Neil trying to say here? Maximum effect? So if the Days are kept in Christ they are MORE important now for what Christ has done?
Given the rather harsh steps WCG HQ has gone to in order to ditch the WCG traditional days, commentaries like this just add to the chaos.

Anne Hanna

How the Festivals Were Fulfilled

By Neil Earle
“No matter how many promises God has made they are ‘Yes’ in Christ” (2 Corinthians 1:20). Jesus came to fulfill the Law, to bring it to its maximum effect (Matthew 5:17-18). He was Lord of the Sabbath (Mat. 12:8), greater than the Temple (v. 26). These claims got him in trouble with people who had their minds made up about how and where God was working. “Christ our Passover” fulfilled the spring feast by dying on the cross. What about the Fall Festival of Tabernacles (FOT) or Succoth (Booths)? Here is the briefest overview:

Leviticus 22:42-43 – FOT instituted to depict Israel wandering in the Wilderness. “Booths” and hazardous journeying.
Isaiah 4:4-6 – Jesus our tabernacle shelters us on our Journey. We are “in Christ” (2 Cor. 5:17) and He tabernacles in us (John 14:23-24 and John 1:14).

Deut. 16:13-15 – A change – FOT now an Agricultural Feast of Ingathering (Ex. 34:22).
2 Cor. 6:16-17 says we are the Temple or Tabernacle of the Living God – can there be a greater fulfillment?
Deut. 31:10-12 – Every seventh year the Law was read.

Jesus fulfills the Law inside his people by giving us His righteousness (Philippians 3:9 and Romans 3:21-23 – apart from Law).

Amos 9:11 – An interpretative key – prophecies for Israel now transferred to Christ, says Acts 15:16-19, thus…

Luke 10:2 – The Ingathering of people is Christ’s major harvest going on right now and climaxes at His return, not in the Millennium (Mat. 13:39).

…Zech. 14:8 – Living waters from Jerusalem.

John 7:37-42 – Jesus offered this at FOT in Jerusalem – many convinced, not all (see Zech. 14:2).

Zech. 14:9 – One Lord, one King.
Ephesians 4:5-6 – Who is the King the Magi were seeking?

Zech. 14:16 – Gentile remnants worship in physical Jerusalem.
Mark 7:26 and John 12:20 show Gentiles converts seeking Jesus and later coming to Jerusalem (Acts 2:11 and 8:27).

Hebrews 12:22-24 points to an even larger “ingathering” fulfillment in the heavenly Jerusalem also happening right now. Says Tony Warren: “These feasts can only be kept as everlasting ordinances if they are kept in Christ.”

Two good articles worth a read!

2007-08-03T23:14:00.000-07:00

I always enjoy Dr. John D. Garr and the opportunity to meet him in the spring of 2002 here in Toronto to celebrate a Passover meal with a group that was interested in the Hebraic roots of Christianity but still wanted to subscribe and incorporate Traditional Adventism (and Sacred Namism) in their theology. Because of their (stubborn and sometimes ultraconservative) controversial stances, I have not fellowshipped with them ever since (plus visiting this group was taxing on my travel from the west end to the east end of Toronto). In spite of this, Dr. Garr's company is always a delight, anywhere, anyplace (plus he's a good fan of the late John Belushi's Animal House :)). Like Richard Burkard he too is a cross between Rush Limbaugh (but with a social conscience like Richard, both from the U.S. state of Georgia!) and my former WCG pastor Neil Earle. For those who don't know Dr. Garr, he has a ministry called The Restoration Foundation (http://www.restorationfoundation.org/) which discusses the importance of Christianity discovering its Jewish roots and being proud of that fact. Like myself, Dr. Garr has no use for anti-Semitism, supercessionalism (that God rejected Israel and replaced it with the Church) and Judeophobia (a fanatical fear of all things Jewish). Here in this article, he furtherly proves that the Holy Days can serve as use for the Christian. He does not promote legalism and he definately is in no way an Armstrongite nor promotes that heretical theological system. The article is titled The High Holy Days and Christian Faith and you look at it here at http://www.restorationfoundation.org/volume%2014/53_6.htm .

Wasn't there an article you felt that Herbert W. Armstrong should have read??? Well, we know that he wasn't the one you didn't "tell" him something you "suggested" to him and you were mighty fine lucky if he took your suggestion seriously! If Herbert Armstrong was really interested in spirituality and the care of the flock instead of fleecing his opulent lifestyle and acting as a control freak and proud of it, he would have sense enough to read this article from Dr Garr's magazine Restore, Who Pastored The Early Church. I have to give you an excerprt from this article .

Because of the anti-Semitic stance taken by the Church in the second and third centuries, many of the Church’s Hebraic foundations and practices were discarded and heathen policies adapted. Consider the functions listed in Ephesians 4:11 which had been part of the synagogue prior to the advent of the Church. That the Holy Spirit had inspired the Church to keep these practices so that it might be unified and mature is evident in Paul’s letter. It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be shepherds and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ (Ephesians 4:11-13). Paul had no need to define these functions since they were so well known among the first century Jewish followers of the Messiah. The cooperation of these anointed functions that had been established in the synagogue would enable God’s people to serve Him, to mature in Him, and to attain the fullness of His Son.
• An apostle (Heb. shaliach / Gk. apostolos) was a person sent forth to an appointed place on a mission. This is not a position of dominance either through ecclesiastical position or anointing. An apostle is a person used by our Lord to complete a specific mission. The Twelve, then Paul, received special commissioning from Jesus. But note other believers referred to as apostles: Andronicus and Junias (Romans 16:7), Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Silvanus and Timothy (1 Thessalonians 2:7).
• An evangelist (Heb. magid / Gk. euaggelistes) was a synagogue planter and repairer. In the Church this person not only shares the Gospel, but gatherstogether a faith community which he will leave in the responsible care of the elders. Timothy and Titus were both evangelists and church planters: "But you,keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry" (2 Timothy 4:5); "The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you" (Titus 1:5).
• A prophet (Heb. esha’elohim, nabyi’ / Gk. prophetes) was one to whom and through whom God spoke for the benefit of His people. Prophets generally functioned beyond the confines of the Hebrew synagogue while Paul expanded that function to include prophetic messages shared within worship gatherings.
• A shepherd (Heb. zaken / Gk. poimen) was a gray-haired man of leadership who imparted wisdom and counsel to a specific group of people, caring for them as a shepherd would his flock.
• A teacher (Heb. rab / Gk. didaskalos) rightly divided the Word to bring clarity to others and to exhort them to action.

If only the historic WCG truly waaay back to the foundation as mentioned above??? It would be nice if many Christian denominations other than the WCG go way back on how to pastor a church? Read and enjoy the rest of this brief article at http://www.restorationfoundation.org/volume%2011/44_28.htm .

Open Letter to Richard Burkard: It is time to go again!!!

2007-08-03T21:58:00.000-07:00

Dear Richard!

I cannot believe it has been 9 years since I have known you via the internet and it will be exactly 9 years this coming fall at one of my last feasts with the Worldwide Church of God in Toronto that I met you in person. You were and still are quite a character. Talk about a cross of Rush Limbaugh (with a greater social conscience than he has) and one of my former WCG pastor Neil Earle. You were very charitable in paying for both of our meals at the feast in Toronto, I hope some day I can return the favour. Swiss Chalet Restaurant is truly the best! I am eternally grateful at your kindness. We agreed on many issues. We disdained Joe Jr.'s ideological campaign to rid the WCG of the Hebraic roots liturgical calendar in favour Western (Roman) Christian liturgical calendar. This was one of many things that the broke our trust in Joseph Tkach Jr.---forever! In your website, you chronicled your last days in the Worldwide Church of God, like mine , they were difficult and completely confusing times that no one should ever repeat in their lifetime. You also chronicled your visits to various Sabbatarian churches until you final eliminated it to one: the United Church of God. It is been now over a half a decade you have been involved with the UCG. That too has been a ride. On the outside, it seemed like an open minded liberal organization of all the splinters. It seemed like it was the WCG in the 1970's---free and easy before Ayatollah Armstrong took away the fun in the '80's. The UCG, what you have discovered, has not what it has appeared to be. There are many good people in the United Church of God but again I feel that the system itself is tainted and when an organization says its a continuation of the 18 truths of Herbert W. Armstrong (which some of those truths have been proven to be theologically false) creates serious problems than it does solutions. This is why I said to you on Mark Tabladillo's Jesus Loves Fellowship board, "You are getting to wise for these people" (I mean the UCG clergy) and I still stand by my statement.

Yes Richard, what I am saying is, "It is your time to go again!" You know that there are geniune Christians in many other denominations beside the XCG's. The UCG still officially grasps with that concept. I remembering visiting an UCG congregation in toronto in '98 and a local elder whom I knew sort of lambasting well-respected Canadian televangelist David Mainse (former host of 100 Huntley Street)in saying that if you mention to David Mainse about "laws and obedience" you would lose him. This is not true and grossly unfair! Pastor Mainse does believe in "laws"---but he'd argue it is the law of Christ and yes he does believe in obedience IN Jesus Christ. Pastor Mainse may believe that some parts of Old Testament law is relevant (and it is highly like it is a smaller fraction than what the UCG believes). The UCG still does graple with the issue of grace. They may say (and they say it loud), "We believe in grace!!!!" But in reality they charge a price, they might even say it is a small price but a gift ceases to be a gift. Richard, you may plead in their defence by saying that they do not communicate this issue properly. The fact is, that the Church of God (Seventh Day) has a better understanding let alone communication of what grace is. Time to go way back what the father of the sabbatarian XCG's has to say. It might do some good. It is time for you to go again because they will not investigate deeply and thoroughly on subject. You did.

Of course Richard, as I left the WCG in '98 (which started as a leave of absence and grew to a permanent departure), it was a very lonely experience. So-called friends (let's call 'em what they really are---users and manipulators---and proud of it!) do not call you up to see how your doing. The probable exception is a ploy to stay within "The Church". That's it! You are nothing but a target to be used by these people. I find it is usually the people who left any kind of Armstrongist XCG are the real friends at the end of the day. At first, you think they are trouble-makers, crap disturbers but the fact remains they have the best interests for you at heart. Their only crime is to desire for you to have your sanity back. If you know some of these people (I don't care if it's via internet) HOLD on to them dearly! Respect what they have to say. They usually have helpful information on life after a splinter group. It is time for you to go again to discover a journeyful life after the XCG churches.

May I add in the process of leaving the UCG, quit trying to look for the perfect church. It is simply not there! Whether it is Sabbatarian or Sunday---all churches, I believe, are in a state of confusion as we speak. This is not say don't visit any church, what I am saying that it would be completely unwise and stubborn to have a list of churches and a process of elimination to find the right fit a second time. In more stronger and harsher terms, this would be proving Albert Einsten's point about insanity. I am not being mean, I am just telling you in the possible way that it is time that you do not be fooled again. You can still practice the principle of a day of rest in the comfort of your own home. I do find some Christians of New Covenant Theology persuasion a little too neurotic and devoid of reason when they shout and scream words and slogans like, "Legalism!!! Bondage!!!! Rest in Christ is all YOU EVER NEED!!!" I would like to say to these people (and trust me some of them you can't tell them anything, it childishly their way or the highway) is: GET A FLICKIN GRIP ON REALITY GUYS!!! I see nothing wrong in continuing a spiritual discipline of a day of rest that benefit the mind and soul as long as one does not make it a sacrament of salvation (in which Traditional Adventism and Armstrongism gleeful fall in that trap). I think North American society can learn something from a day of rest from worldly and business pursuits. Sadly it seems in North America with both Christian churches and the world, it seems stary eyed when it comes to consumerism and when you take out that principle of resting the body and soul it is inevitably problematic. North American Church as a result has become hyper-dualistic in its thinking and has no room for the holistic---but that's another topic for another time.

Keep reading religious material from many sources---always keep an open mind but at the same time continue to have low BS meter when one tries to major in the minors in their theology which tragically minimizes the gospel of Jesus Christ and what he stood for and what he has promised for all mankind is thrown out the window because of their petty doctrine which has no consequence. Now is the time to make the stand! To stay with the UCG any longer than you have to is just another journey to a dead end street to nowhere. Come along with the adventurous journey, it is rough, it is tough but in the end it will be worth it. The consequences for taking that journey is beneficial for the long term.

God Bless!

YBIC,

Felix Taylor, Jr.

What is WRONG with mega-churches??? "J Source" Explains!

2007-07-29T22:03:00.000-07:00

One thing I cannot stand in Christian MEGA-Churches today is how cool and businesslike they are.I attended a large mega church for about a year and a half. The Mega-Church had a Sunday morning attendance of over 2,500 people. And I made the following observations:

1. Approaching the Senior Pastor is next to impossible.

2. The Senior Pastor usually cannot be bothered and is cool and impersonable.

3. There are so many types of ministers you need a guide to know which one to go to for what.

4. Tithing is preached about more often in a mega church then one would expect, even for a mega church.

5. There are practically innumerable committees, sub committees, and other things.

6. They have no problems selling merchandise on their Sabbath.

7. Java and Latte and Capuccino in the lobby for sale is common in mega Churches.

8. Red tape, red tape, red tape on starting or doing anything service oriented.Is it just me, or when a church becomes a mega church, isn't it just a large business with religious overtones?

Editor's note: RIGHT ON BROTHER!!!

To the XCG's: Here is REAL persecution!

2007-07-18T21:12:00.000-07:00

If you are member of the XCG splinters and if you think you are going under persecution because a few bloggers and theologians think your religion is a very cruel one and should begone from the face of the earth, well GET A GRIP!!! Christian believers in Iraq have paid with their own blood. Thanks to WCG Alumni's Hannah she picked an article from WorldNet Daily Report:

Christians in Iraq, including converts from Islam and people involved in mixed-faith marriages, are being crucified by Muslim terrorists, according to a Dutch member of Parliament studying the war-torn country.
Several Iraqi Christians "are nailed to a cross and their arms are tied up with ropes. The ropes are put on fire," Joel Voordewind told BosNewsLife, an online news agency focusing on Christians and Jews in difficult circumstances.
According to the site, Voordewind described how a person, who "survived" a crucifixion, "even showed holes in his hands," apparently from nails.
Voordewind said victims of the crucifixions are "in most cases Christian converts who abandoned Islam or people who, religiously speaking, are involved in mixed marriages."
He did not specify how many Christians have been crucified in recent weeks and months, as an official report is expected soon. Voordewind is slated to present his findings to Dutch Minister of Foreign Affairs Maxime Verhagen within the next few days.
The report comes as thousands of Christians are said to be fleeing Iraq due to ongoing threats and violence against them. Just yesterday, over 80 people were killed in bomb blasts in the northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk. Most of the casualties resulted from a suicide truck bomb which detonated near the offices of the Kurdish political party led by Iraq's President Jalal Talabani.
BosNewsLife says Voordewind was part of a Dutch delegation visiting several countries in the Mideast, including Syria, where several lawmakers held talks with the terrorist group Hamas.

See the original article at http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56726

I couldn't resist again...

2007-07-18T09:56:00.000-07:00

I have been always trying to find Amy Grant's '90's remake of '70's group 10CC, "The Things We do For Love". Again, I am soo grateful for Youtube.com that I found that wonderful version of that song again!

Special treat for my 200th post...some old school CCM!

2007-07-18T09:02:00.001-07:00

Yes, this is a milestone on my 2 year blog and thought it would be nice to have some good ole fashioned Christian Contemporaray Music by none other than The Master, Amy Grant. She too, faced a lot of legalism and unnecessary controversy in the evangelical community. They criticized her sharply for her marriage troubles and her subsequent marriage to fellow musician Vince Gill and in the video below "Wise Up" some even criticized her outfit which include a "leopard jacket and tight stirrup pants" (when will this misogynist and stupid hatred of the female body in some fanatical ultra conservative factions in Christianity begone and die?!). More importantly, she does have a large place in Christian Contemporary Music and secular popular music history, which she can take great pride in. Enjoy these videos, courtesy of Youtube.com, "Wise Up" an '80's video and her 1993 crossover hit, "Baby,Baby".

A waaay far better alternative to universalism, I think.

2007-07-17T21:18:00.000-07:00

I had the opportunity to meet Jon Buck in the late '90's at one of which was probably my last Feast of Tabernacles of WCG. I will say with my meeting with him, he's quite a character and that is a good thing. He was supportive of the changes in the WCG without the evangelical schmaltz that Joe Jr. and friends sought to aggressivel impose on the WCG membership. C'mon, Jon is a Brit and Brit's have no time for sentimentality (especially the American kind) or being "over the top." I do hope there will be an opportunity to talk with Jon Buck again at some pont (hey, if you are reading this blog, feel free to comment here anytime!). He currently pastors a WCG church in Barrie, Ontario. I have replied to Douglas Becker in the comments section of the post on Bishop Carlton Pearson's view on universalism that the evangelical WCG still preaches a righteous provision on the unevangelized dead. Jon Buck explains this in the Sepember/October 2005 edition of The Northern Light (a Canadian based WCG publication) in the Pastor's Corner section titled Exclusive or Inclusive? What Are We? Mind you, there are those Protestants especially of Calvinist persuasion wished WCG that they would accept a more restrictivist view (in addition with the belief of the Western Church's view of hell, eternal torment in The Lake of Fire). Because of the new evangelical WCG's refusal to do so, those of Calvinist persuasion still believe that the WCG is a still a cult. Where do I stand? Those who have known what I have said that I believe that theological the WCG is orthodox in it's theology but cultic in it's orthopraxy (the practice of those beliefs) . The root cause I believe, is the hierarchial government that is still instituted (but this is another subject for another time). I see nothing cultic in believing in the divine perseverence of God. A 19th century Scottish fiction writer and Congregationalist preacher George MacDonald believed in it to and had no use for the restrictivist view of Calvin (which the theory of predestination actually reduced him to tears). Well here is the link to Jon Buck's article at http://www.wcg.ca/northernlight/2005_sep_oct/pastors_corner.htm . I hope many will enjoy it or be inspired by it!

Carlton Pearson and the problem of hell

2007-07-15T21:13:00.001-07:00

I remember seeing Carlton Pearson (and many other preachers) when I used to have UHF on my old black and white TV to tune in on Trinity Broadcasting Network on channel 49 (now on channel 26) on Buffalo, New York's WNYB in the early to mid 1990's. As my theological perspectives have changed over the years, so has Bishop Pearson's. While I have embraced much of the theological orthodoxy of essential Christian faith, Bishop Pearson has accepted a more heterodox view. Some will argue that he has accepted a heretical view or is a heretic, plain and simple. It is over the touchy issue of hell. It is a very emotional and argumentive issue over many Christian theologians whether they believe in the conditionalist or traditionalist view of hell. Bishop Pearson believes in a form of universalism, that nobody goes to hell. Instead we go through hell (with the trials and suffering on earth) as opposed of being consigned to hell. Bishop Pearson also says, ""The bitter torment of the idea of an angry, visceral, distant, stoic, harsh, unrelenting, unforgiving, intolerant God is hell. It's pagan, it's superstitious, and if you trace its history, it goes way back to where men feared the gods because something happened in life that caused frustration that they couldn't explain." Bishop Pearson has a paid a price for his newfound teachings. Besides the heretic label, he lost his associate ministers who resigned and a congregation that dwindled from 6000 to 300!

Where do I stand in the midst of this? I can sympathize with Bishop Pearson's sentiments but I cannot agree with his conclusions. I believe his conclusions do not in anyway solve the problem of fighting evil. What happens with people like Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Ho Chi Minh---or Charles Manson---how about the fanatical con-men of certain XCG splinters ---or the child molester, the pedophile, the sexual promiscous stripper who uses and manipulates men sexually and financially, the greedy and narcissistic corporate executive---or the abusive boss at work---all get a free pass to heaven? Their lives on earth was of no consequence? What they did on earth was okay? God said in the book of Nahum that he will in no way acquit the wicked. Will God just change their natures to good? If that is the case, God was joking about free-will and prefers robots. To me, that god is just as immoral as the "harsh, angry and vindictive" god. Therefore, a hell must exist to restrain or eliminate evil on a permanent basis. I believe that hell is the choice of man, I have stridently opposed the Augustinian-Calvinistic view that there are those who are predestined to hell and I have took the scripture from II Peter 3:9 that, "God is not willing anyone to perish but for all come to repentence" very seriously and at take it at face value. At the same time Hebrews 10:26 warns of unimaginable eternal consequences for those who want to live a life of sin and want to be an a "spirit of independence" from God after receiving the knowledge of the truth. Therefore, there must be a hell as a demonstration of God's ulimate love for the righteous and his ultimate fight against the wicked. As C.S. Lewis described that in the final judgement, the righteous say, "Your will be done!" and God says to the wicked, "Your will be done!"

Where do I and Bishop Pearson have common ground? We both do struggle with the restrictivist view that the unevangelized dead count as automatically "unbelievers" and "the wicked" and will automatically go to hell, whether or not they heard the gospel or not. Bishop Pearson had relatives who were "unevangelized" and it cannot not be argued that this can make him (and other people) struggle with the idea of how this can be a "loving God?" Many people have known that I have always believed that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to salvation, I have at the same time believed that it is possible that God (the Father, the Son and the Spirit) CAN make a righteous provision for the unevangelized dead who did not hear nor understand the gospel through no fault of their own but this is where the similiarities end. I cannot believe that everyone goes to heaven. If one has a problem with the conditionalist view of hell (annhilationism) and the Western view of hell (literal eternal torment by fire taught by Protestants and Catholics), I hope that Bishop Pearson may spend some time on what the Eastern Orthodox believe in heaven and hell and I think this is probably the most humane treatment on the topic for those that believe that the spirit in man is conscious after death. I provided the link here before and I will do it again: http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html . It is my hope that Bishop Pearson does re-read his Bible again (as I had to do many times and I will be doing it many times over for years and maybe perhaps some decades to come) and can reconcile the love of God and his judgement against evil as a single unit. His current theology as it stands will present some very serious problems and dire consequences that he probably never intend to create but nevertheless have been created by faulty theology.

Read about the controversy about Bishop Pearson at ABC News at http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3362554

The One True Church dogma lives on...in the Roman Catholic Church

2007-07-11T07:51:00.000-07:00

It should come to no surprise that not only the historic WCG and its splinters believe that they God's only one true church. This is was what the Roman Catholic Church has believed for years. Pope John XXIII in the 1960's at Vatican II at least compromised and recognize that the Protestatnts are "separated brothers". Current pontiff, Pope Benedict XVI had a statement that really may throw the concept of separated brothers out the window. Courtesy from the blogsite CrunchyCon.com, here's what I am talking about:

The Vatican has set itself on a collision course with other Christian faiths, reaffirming the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church in a corrective document designed to clear up recent "erroneous" doctrine.
The document's central claim that the Catholic Church is "the one true Church of Christ" is likely to revive a debate that has dogged the Vatican's dealings with other Christian faiths for decades.
The 16-page document, prepared by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which Pope Benedict used to head, describes Christian Orthodox churches as true churches but says they suffer from a "wound" because they do not recognise the primacy of the Pope.
But it says the "wound is still more profound" in the Protestant denominations, a view likely to further complicate relations with Protestants.
"Despite the fact that this teaching has created no little distress... it is nevertheless difficult to see how the title of 'Church' could possibly be attributed to them," it said.

There is no doubt that this will effect relationships with Protestant Churches in a profound manner. We really should not be really suprised about the Pope's statement. Before Benedict was Pope, he did say he wanted a "smaller" and "purer" church. This statement may be one step toward his wish.

Where do I stand with this? I have believed since the mid-1990's that the "Church" is an "invisible body" as opposed to a certain religious organization and I still believe that. I take Jesus Christ's statement "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" as every single human being having the right and responsibility to come to Christ personally as opposed to an organized church taking that responsiblility in place of the Savior. I hope the day that there will be a more progressive-minded Pope that will be bold, believe that I and many others believe and say that the Roman Catholic Church is a "part of the only One True Church". I may have been highly critical of the evangelical WCG but I applaud Joe Jr. for being bold and saying just that.

Oh yes!

2007-07-10T06:59:00.000-07:00

J, of Shadows of WCG and of recent, Gavin Rumney has introduced this person's new blog. I think it's just as appropriate for me to introduce Stand Gardner's Ambassador Reports and you can look at it here at http://ambassdorreports.blogspot.com/ . I will even put his blogsite in my links section. I wish Stan's blog will also be around for several years to come keeping people like Joe Jr. and others to account!

More Best of The Agenda's shows: 5 days of faith

2007-07-09T21:03:00.000-07:00

I have recently explained to people who are Canadians outside the province of Ontario and many Americans whose borders DO NOT touch the province of Ontario about TVO Ontario which is the roughly the equivalent to the U.S. public educational service PBS. I have explained about TVO's flagship current affairs show called The Agenda hosted by Steve Paikin. I have been remarkably impressed with the show and the most of the episodes that followed. Here is a repeat of earlier this year's week theme of episodes called, "5 days of Faith". You can click here to see each video which is approximately an hour in length which is in total with all five episodes is approximately 5 hours of viewing. Enjoy!

July 6: Cheri DiNovo Worshipping at Secular Altars
July 5: The Psychology of God
July 4: Clyde Wilcox The Geopolitics of Religion
July 3: Jerry Coyne Science and Religion
July 2: God in an Enlightened Age

This woman GETS IT!

2007-07-08T22:45:00.000-07:00

For those outside the Toronto area and Canada, I present to you Marianne Meed Ward who writes columns for the Toronto Sun dealing with issues of faith and religion. I congratulate her for standing up to Bible literalists trying to make scripture into a science book. She is right that the literalists have done more harm than help to the Christian church. In fact, the literalists have ruined the credibility and public trust to the Church all because of their narrow view of what faith should be. Ms.Meed-Ward rightfully objects and says, "First, faith should be stronger than a house of cards that comes crashing down with every breeze of revelation, or alternatively imprisons its followers in an infantile reduction of key religious themes.
I envision faith more like a web, with strands coming and going as the believer gains more knowledge and insight. This is a strong faith, able to incorporate new information, and even abandon downright kooky notions without throwing out the entire faith. " I do look forward to a time in the Christian community, the evangelical in particular, when people will not be looked down for taking a metaphorical view of Genesis chapters 1 & 2 but I think I know that is not going to come anytime soon but I am optimistic that coming decades in this century that will change. If some in the evangelical community were really honest behind all their literalistic shouting,huffing and puffing and other hot air, it's all about defending "original sin", especially it's Calvinistic derivitive of "total depravity" and other misanthropic man-made doctrines (made in the name of God) to make people "hate" themselves and to control the congregating masses. Probably this is high time to believe in "original blessing" as opposed to original sin (but that is truly another topic for another time). The Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox for years have had no problem with believing in evolution and faith. It has been perennial problem with American evangelical Christians or as I borrow Gavin Rumney's phrase "fundagelicals". I can only say, it is time for North American evangelical Christians to grow up amongst other issues.

Read the rest of Marianne's article here at http://www.torontosun.com/Lifestyle/Columnists/MeedWard_Marianne/2007/07/08/4322735-sun.html

Sick!!!

2007-07-06T20:31:00.000-07:00

FYI Again pointed out that I was rather very passionate and extremely dogmatic in my remarks in my other post that Armstrongism was one of the wickedest religions of mankind. Maybe I was a "little" over the top but I do believe that most of the XCG splinters are EVIL and they need to be resisted and fought vigourously at ALL costs but this video I am about to show you from Fred Phelps' anti-gay (and proud of it) church by the name of Westboro Baptist Church has a new video called, "God Hates The World" truly takes the cake! This guy makes Rod Meredith look like the more "moderate" Billy Graham!!! Somebody show this man John 3:16 but probably it doesn't exists in this man's warped mind. Make sure you see the ending of this video and you will definately say to yourself, "Is this child abuse or what???"

If any "fundagelical" (with apologies to Gavin Rumney) wants to complain about videos on MTV, this is one of the sickest music videos,ever. Sad, it had to be religious.

God Hates the World - Watch more free videos

Intelligent quote of the day

2007-07-04T22:13:00.000-07:00

The responsibility of a parent is first to the child. Not to anything else. Not to church, not to religion, not to money - to the *child*.Anyone who is completely mentally healthy would walk into the church, see immediately that something is not right, and leave. Once they get to the point where they accept ministerial *counseling* (the sermon should be an immediate tipoff that there's a problem), they have already bought into it a little bit.But even if they don't - the minute that they see that what they are doing will harm the child - that should be it. No amount of religious influence, no amount of ministerial influence, no amount of *anything* should supersede the fact that the child will be harmed if a certain course of action is followed. I don't care if someone is yelling in your face saying you will go to hell, a parent should say "them I am going to hell but MY CHILD WILL NOT BE HARMED."In the case that a parent isn't healthy enough to tell the difference, then they have no business having custody of a child in the first place."But I was hoodwinked" is no excuse - *no excuse*. If you have a child it is your responsibility *not* to be hoodwinked. And if you are, it is *your responsibility*, as you are ultimately responsible for that child. Not the church, not the minister, no one but you.

---Russell Miller, participant on J's Shadows of WCG message board and a bloggist in his own right, discussing the issue of the power of the cult vs. the power of the parents.

Another good video from J of Shadows of WCG!

2007-07-04T22:07:00.000-07:00

Somebody give that man a prize!!!

Another sad childhood in the historic WCG

2007-07-04T21:08:00.000-07:00

Thanks again to PasedenaGuy 10 of WCG Alumni message board, he discovered a bloggist discussing her sad childhood in the historic Worldwide Church of God. The blog site is called Her Scarlet Letters and here is the blog post at:http://herscarletletters.blogspot.com/2007/07/e-is-for-elephant.html . For those who understand what this lady went through, just read it and weep!

FYI AGAIN's take on the future of Rod and the LCG

2007-07-04T20:49:00.000-07:00

LCG is toast

Whether it happens next week, next year, or the year after, it's been obvious to me for some time that LCG is headed for a complete breakdown.Many long time, loyal members have already left, either for one of the other COG groups or dropped out of the COG's altogether. Much of the growth that RCG's David Pack loves to boast about has come at the expense of LCG.And yet LCG's leaders and their proxies on the web continue to act as though all is well and nothing is amiss. To the degree they acknowledge any problem at all, it's always attributed to just a few disgruntled members who are in a "malaise" (another word for "bad attitude").I don't see how Rod Meredith can continue to hold to the delusion that God is somehow working with, even focusing His attention on his pathetic and steadily shrinking "work". By no stretch of the imagination are the fruits of the Spirit evident in anything they are doing - let alone the "gifts of the Spirit" which they've been praying and fasting for over the past few years.There is indeed a malaise in LCG, but it starts at the top and works its way down. Rod Meredith should be taking Jesus advice and look to the beam in his own eye first.

My response:

You hit the nail again FYI Again! Like the rest of us, we eagerly hope it is VERY soon. Even a year or even two years to wait for the LCG's demise is a wee long.

Isn't it amazing that Herbert W. Armstrong found Rod Meredith repellent? Here's a letter written in 1980 discussing this at: http://www.servantsnews.com/PDF/merlet01.pdf

PasedenaGuy10 speaks out on Spanky's blame on his own organization!

2007-07-02T22:56:00.000-07:00

Pasedena Guy10 of WCG Alumni briefly explains:

Good Old Rodders is out blaming the brethren for the problems going on in his cult. It's the members fault that they are confused, it's there fault that members have cancer and other serious diseases. It's their fault because they are not studying Meredith's version of the scriptures.

Quote:

Many of our ministers and leading brethren have sensed a spiritual "malaise" coming over quite a number of our brethren. Since nothing shocking seems to be happening on the surface—though much is happening just underneath the surface in world affairs!—some are letting down spiritually! Fervent prayer and real Bible study are lacking. And no doubt partly because of this, some brethren are losing their spiritual focus and are beginning to feel that God is "far off," that nothing much is happening in world affairs and that it is not really important that we are all truly committed to being part of the Work which Christ is using us to do.They don't realize that we are being used in a unique manner to truly "warn" our peoples of the Great Tribulation and also to genuinely "feed" God's people with the "whole counsel of God" (Acts 20:27). Many "little groups"—here and there—have part of the Truth and are doing a "little" part of the Work. But where is Christ primarily working and where are His eyes focused today on the Church. He is using to prepare for the coming Kingdom of God? Most of you understand. But some of our people are confused and weak, and some are also discouraged that several of our brethren are becoming seriously ill with various forms of cancer, heart disease, etc.So our Headquarters team unanimously agreed that we should call a Church-wide fast for the Sabbath of August the 4th!

PasedenaGuy 10 brilliantly responds:

Maybe what he really needs to do is tell his ministers and 'leading brethren' to get off their self-serving, self-righteous lazy @sses and go out in the community and work in the soup kitchens, serve the homeless, serve in an AIDS hospice, clean up the trash in a gang infested neighborhood or any other activity that takes their minds off of themselves and puts their so called 'faith' into action to make a REAL difference in the world instead promoting their fake 'gospel' message.

I respond to PG10:

Excellent, brilliant, articulate and intelligent advice! Sadly, XCG ministers have historically have never listened to anybody whether outside or inside the organization. My prayer is that this prayer and fast this coming August 4th of this year will lead to an open door for the thousands of members of the Living Church of God that they will finally for once in their lives to viscerally and violently reject once and for all the most wicked religion known to mankind: Armstrongism. It is my prayer that an open door will be provided that many will have a "real" relationship with God, not this false brand which has always been proven to be a dead end street. For the god of Armstrong is also a wicked but impotent one. The god of Armstrongism is a dumb idol, that knows how to get mad every day but in effect cannot speak. I pray that the people in the LCG in their newfound fight against Armstrongism and Armstrong's god that in their battle they will not waver, not tire,not falter and most of all, which is of supreme paramount importance---NOT FAIL! It is my prayer that rejecting this immoral god and wicked religion that an important discovery for the key of peace and freedom will dynamically prevail! God Almighty (and I'm talking about the true one who does hear and speak) will speed that time ever so closely!

Intelligent quote of the day

2007-06-24T20:46:00.000-07:00

The WCG really botched the changes, in such a way that it leads me to believe that they had absolutely no interest in the welfare of their members. If they had done it right, they would have enlisted the help of outside therapists and had them waiting in the wings for anyone who wanted them, the power structure would have been dissolved, the organization would have been dissolved, the money would be distributed to programs to help the "displaced members". Not only that, but they would have issued a full apology.Instead, they just sprung it on the members and told them "this is how it is, deal with it".While the WCG did the right things for the wrong reason in implementing the changes, they completely botched them.

---Russell Miller on J's blog Shadows of WCG discussing whether one's years in Worldwide was really a waste of time

Boy this guy needs a theological seminary lesson!

2007-06-23T17:47:00.000-07:00

Isn't heaven in the narrowest sense being in the presence of God personally??? What about that verse in Hebrews 12:23 talking about "the spirits of just men made perfect."??? It's not talking about the saints turning into spirit beings. They ARE spirits in heaven, eternally in fellowship with the love of God. I showed this verse to a prominent evangelical Adventist minister who supported the doctrine of soul sleep but was circular (but polite) in his response. Yes, I don't have to believe any tradition nor what anybody says (and this includes the commentator from the United Church of God's Beyond Today program)---but voila, plain scripture has took root again. In saying this---I do not attack people who believe in soul sleep and conditional immortality. Edward Fudge, best noted for his book The Fire That Consumes (I have his other book called Two Views of Hell) is a geniune Christian and firmly believes in the essentials of historic Christian faith. I have e-mailed him various times and is very cordial and supportive in his approach. In my post-WCG theology, I am leaning to the fact that when we die, the spirit in man IS conscious unlike what Armstrongism and the Jehovah's Witness teach that it is just a "memory bank" for our ressurection. When believer's bodies die, their spirits live being eternally in the care and presence of God. What can be better than heaven? For those who argue that if you believe in the immortal soul (or spirit)---you don't believe in the ressurection, I say that is pure emotional nonsense. For starters, Armstrongism never did and never will believe in the physical ressurection: note they deny the physical ressurection of Christ (they say that Christ was a spirit creature manifesting himself in a physical body to the Apostles)---whereas orthodox Christianity has acknowledged that it was the same body that died on the cross that was ressurected but it assumed new and incredible amazing powers. Armstrongism believes that the saints will turn into "spirit beings" without ever noticing that human beings are also spirital beings too! The saints at their ressurection will return in their bodies (a physical body) but it will no longer be subject to disease, sin and death. Yes, they will reign with God forever and forever and no, they will not be playing harps all day. Actually, I don't know of any single Christian who believes in the immortality of the soul who actually believes in that nonsense. Again this another of Armstrongism's manipulative red herrings to deflect from real substiantial issues. While you're at it, you can do some homework. Go to this website at http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num10.htm and this website at http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/hellcomp.htm and even the Greek Orthodox view of the afterlife(which I am beginning to mostly subscribe to this view but by no means the complete entirty of it) at http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html . Also I would recommend a Robert Morey's book Death and the Afterlife which can purchased on amazon at http://www.amazon.com/Death-Afterlife-Robert-Morey/dp/076422686X/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1069291-1671147?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182649006&sr=8-1 . Enjoy some real study instead of getting information from a pre-packaged marketing from a program that pretends to know everything but really demonstrates it's complete ignorance!

Guess whose coming to Mother Church for dinner???

2007-06-22T15:22:00.001-07:00

Good news for Jared Olar, Professor Beckwith and Darren Carrey. Thanks to Daily Dish's Andrew Sullivan for the link to the Guardian. Here it is at http://politics.guardian.co.uk/tonyblair/story/0,,2108858,00.html .

Quite a character!!!

2007-06-20T20:49:00.000-07:00

I present to you a full episode of The Best of The Agenda with Steve Paikin. Steve interview's TV's The Naked Archeologist Simcha Jacobovi (which is seen here in Canada on Vision TV) and his controversy on the tomb of Jesus and a panel discussion on Christian doctrine. Click here June 12: Simcha Jacobovici Faith, Flexibility and Christian Doctrine. For those who are not familiar with Simcha, who is a very humourous and interesting character to say the least, a brief bio at wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simcha_Jacobovici should do the trick! Enjoy!

More UCG stupidity

2007-06-17T22:00:00.000-07:00

Richard Burkard, a United Church of God member is waaay more long suffering than Alice Kramden of the Honeymooners (Gen Yers, I am talking about the '50's TV series---not the 2000's movie!) , I think it's time that Richard not feel guilty about losing his patience with the continual stupidity that still exists in the UCG. What I am I talking about? I will let Richard speak for himself:

You'll be pleased to know the United Church of God declares itself NOT guilty of "legalism." And to prove it, here's a partial list of all the things I've heard my UCG Pastor oppose in recent years:
1. eHarmony.com -- "God doesn't work that way."
2. Roller coasters. They're dangerous, and might tempt God.
3. Poems in sermons/sermonettes. This one was declared out of order just last weekend.
4. Pirate Master, the CBS summer reality series. Its promos promoted lying and stealing so much, it was condemned even before its premiere.
5. Bank of America. The Pastor said a boycott would be in order, after it announced plans to allow immigrants to get bank services without Social Security numbers.
6. Politicians in Armani outfits. He seemed to condemn Nancy Pelosi for wearing Armani on TV, after the November 2006 national election.
7. The city of Atlanta. Because it has not repented of its sins, the Southeast is in a major drought in 2007.
This same Pastor opposed the following things during his years in WCG, and to this point I have not heard them revoked in UCG:
1. The Simpsons. It tears down the family.
2. Children appearing in TV commercials -- for violating the "fires of Molech" principle.
That's all I can think of for the moment -- but I'll add to the list as things come to mind. Here's hoping you heed all these warnings, and walk humbly before God.

Editors note (in two words): Yeah right! UCG minister: GROW THE HECK UP!!!! (actually 8 words but whooose counting!)

source Mark Tabladillo's Jesus Love Fellowship message board

Intelligent quote of the day

2007-06-15T21:55:00.000-07:00

The Daleks and Cybermen of Dr. Who and the Borg of Star Trek the Next Generation and its spinoffs give us an effective aphorism of religion -- and this applies beyond the confines of the church of gods. The root of the problem is the seeking of perfection without bounds and limits. Nothing but perfection matters: Not humanity, not individuality, not love or empathy and sometimes, not even money and greed. What matters is that damned perfection -- as defined by the collective.Anything different than the collective is to be absorbed. The perfection is to be acquired, all else is discarded.At the core of seeking perfection is evil. The end justifies the means. The collective is protected. Worse than that, it is unassailable because, after all, isn't seeking perfection the perfect goal? Methods don't matter. The individual doesn't matter. The higher concept of perfection is what matters. If you have to murder, maim, dismember, destroy in the name of perfection, it is but a small price to pay. The seeking of perfection becomes the perfect justification to insulate from any accountability.Thus we see the seeking of perfection of many groups that "suck", such as the Scientologists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Radical Moslems, the churches of God all together representing the ideal perfection and the seeking of perfection. The religions are self-righteous and their goals look to be unassailable, but the fruit of their doing is a lifestyle and lifetime of misery for the individual sucked into their eschatological black hole.In the end, they are all evil to one degree or another. It isn't that power corrupts, it is the flawed view of what perfection is and more importantly how to attain it.And in such a venue of the Church Corporate which has adopted the worst of the Corporate Model and implemented it badly, the seeking of perfection will destroy us all if it is not checked.Fortunately, the church of gods has embedded in it a self-destruct mechanism. The focused power has been dispersed through entropy, beginning with those who began to see that the collective was nowhere near the perfection it claimed to have. Affiliations won't help much when the entire collective is so flawed that it cannot survive intact.

---Douglas Becker discussing the unhealthy perfectionist attitudes in the XCGs and other cults

source Gavin Rumney's Ambassador Watch blog

More Dawkins

2007-06-13T21:25:00.000-07:00

Here is more stuff for you fans and critics of Richard Dawkins alike. For American viewers (and even Canadian viewers who live outside the province of Ontario) Richard Dawkins appears on a current affairs show called The Agenda with Steve Paikin on network called TV Ontario (TVO)---which the equivalent to PBS. Steve Paikin reviews Richard Dawkins' book the God Delusion. Thanks again Youtube.com!

This sounds like the god of Armstrongism and his ministers to me!!!

2007-06-03T20:04:00.000-07:00

Richard, are you sure it is the God of the Old Testament? Or is it Armstrongism's twisted interpretation of God in both testaments? I really think you speak very true of the latter rather than the former.

Wise Words fom Byker Bob: Armstrongism tried over and over DOES NOT WORK!

2007-05-30T23:16:00.000-07:00

Ya know, J, last summer I was listening to the Michael Medved program. On this particular occasion, he was observing how every couple of decades, any one of several influential professors on some of the larger ivy league campuses will attempt to rehabilitate the concept of communism. And, the first thing this person will state is that communism really is not a bad way of life if we could only get the right people running it. They'll
blame tyrannical dictators for the failure of the philosophy itself.

Now, Medved wondered, how many times do we have to try communism and have it fail before we realize that the very philosophy corrupts leaders and makes them into the oppressive types of tyrants that are universally associated with communism?

That for me was a huge lightbulb moment! I knew immediately that this had a direct parallel to the typical Armstrongite doctrines, and the ACOGs! How many times do we have to experiment with the so-called 18 restored truths before we realize that that very system will always produce oppressive leaders, and very toxic cultic behavior????? It's a cause and effect relationship, and though Armstrongites consider themselves to be Christians, the ACOG system always produces very unChristian behavior! I suppose you could privately practice Armstrongism in your home, and not do anyone any harm, but the minute you turn it into an organized group, voila! Hello cultism!

Far be it from me to try to dictate peoples' choices in their religious practices, but I personally feel that anyone who goes from ACOG to ACOG, attempting to find the "good" one is just kidding themselves.

Source: Shadows of the WCG blog, response to article: Scattered and in Disarray 05/27/07

Oooh I couldn't resist!

2007-05-30T23:01:00.000-07:00

I couldn't resist to bring another youtube.com clip from Mark! This one is Are There Prophets and Apostles tody? A relevant message to the XCG's where ol' Gerry of Philadelphia is considered "That Prophet!" and David Pack is considered "God's Apostle". Mark has some splendid advice: run away from these people as far as you can! Sorry that the picture on the video is somewhat blurred.

He's baaack!!!

2007-05-30T22:48:00.000-07:00

San Antonio, Texas' Mark (Oct13th1517) of Youtube.com has "Pentecostalism is NOT of God, Part 2". He just keeps telling them they way it is. Enjoy!

A tale of legalism in a non-Armstrongist Sabbatarian church

2007-05-29T22:24:00.000-07:00

I have found another interesting article posted on the website "Delivered" which discusses and critiques the excesses in charismatic and Pentecostal denominations. This one particular article called "Life in a Hebrew Pentecostal Holiness Church". You maybe familiar with it's alternative name "The House of God"---which late great soul singer Marvin Gaye came from. The author of the article has her name withheld and is an African American woman who had her beginnings in studying the historic WCG and CGI literature and eventually ended up with the Hebrew Pentecostals. Those who were in the historic WCG and/or splinters will realize that some of the things in that church sound waaay to all too familiar. Thankfully, the author has found peace of mind from the legalism and authoritarianism produced in The House of God and now attends a Lutheran church with her husband. Blessings to both.

The article is here at http://www.ex-upci.net/id78.html

An interesting Q&A article on Christianity Today.com

2007-05-24T22:18:00.000-07:00

I found an another interesting article on Christianity Today.com on a Question and Answer interview with Baylor University Professor Francis Beckwith's rejoining the Catholic faith from Protestantism. As a result resigned from the Evangelical Theological Society. Gavin Rumney has mentioned about Professor Beckwith's decision earlier this month on his blog at http://ambassadorwatch.blogspot.com/2007/05/roaming-rome-ward.html . As a teen growing up in the WCG, I believed with my whole heart that the Roman Catholic Church was Babylon as the church taught it. Thankfully in my mid 20's in 1994 when the late Joe Sr. said that there "were other Christians in other churches" I sort of mellowed out but was glad to hear that Catholics and Protestants were to take part in the "first ressurection", I was no longer lonely---while the ultra-conservatives in WCG cringed bitterly in being deceitful passive aggressive mode (smile outside, say nothing and whine and curse inside) against that concept. They (the Armstrongites in their vanity) had to be the elite force! I learned to respect and love Pope John Paul II as I entered my current decade of life (the 30's), finally learning that he was one of the "good guys" (hey there is a book about Reagan, Thatcher and John Paul II's effort to thwart the Soviet empire). Another side note, I was baptized as a Roman Catholic before my mom joined the WCG in 1971 and probably Jared Olar and Darren Carrey would love to say to me, "Felix, it's time to come home to Mother Church." Well, not quite. As I said, I admire Pope John Paul II and I respect the Catholic's belief in faith and works go together (whereas evangelical Protestants haven't grown up on this issue enough in my opinion, they like to scream we are NOT saved by works---yea,yea I know but in James said that faith without works is dead! So deal with it!) but I think Jared would consider me way too much of a "cafeteria Catholic" to join anyway. Still consider myself a post evangelical who is interested in some of what Eastern Orthodoxy has to say on original sin, their Christus Victor view on the Atonement (as opposed to the western view of penal subsititution), their view of heaven and hell among other things. I am also stil interested in the Hebriac roots of Christianity (but don't expect me to wear a tzit-tzit and dress up like a Hasidic). Those who are in the splinters (and those who have a malicious anti-Catholic bias) would do well to understand why people like Professor Beckwith, Jared and Darren decide to become Catholics. Trust me they are not evil people but rather pretty God-fearing. Open your mind and see their positions, you don't have to submit it---just understand it. You will become a better person for it.

Read the Q&A article here at http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/mayweb-only/119-33.0.html

Byker Bob on Jerry Falwell

2007-05-16T22:10:00.000-07:00

This man, whether one liked and agreed with him or not, mobilized what became the antidote to the '60s. All of the battles that the various groups thought they had won during the late '60s were contested by Jerry Falwell, and his "Moral Majority". By the end of the '70s, most people were cutting off their long hair, and adopting more conservative lifestyles. The '70s were pretty much a decade of national partying, dope smoking, and such. Falwell's backlash was responsible for sweeping Ronald Reagan into office. At the time, I saw this as being a bad thing, because it appeared that the prudes were taking back the country. I'd just left one crazy religious group, and here, suddenly, it appeared that a bunch of evangelical fanatics were reversing all of the new things which I'd come to love and enjoy. They even wanted to censor the lyrics in rock n roll! There were massive protests outside of Planned Parenthood clinics.At this point in time, there are people who are absolutely paranoid that the Christian right is working in cahoots with our federal government to create a religious police state. I think that is just rhetoric, and don't take it seriously at all. One thing is certain, though. Reagan, possibly with Falwell's influence, induced a lot of "yellow dog Democrats", who were also born again Christians, to cross over and vote for Lincoln's party. Falwell's role was to convince Christians that they didn't have to sit around and just watch as anti-Christian decisions were made by the electorate. He got them involved in the political process, and demonstrated that the Republican party platform was more consistent with their beliefs than was that of the Democrats.Good or bad, Jerry Falwell certainly had more influence on the course of the USA than did HWA or any of his successors. Ol' Hog Jowls is probably turning over in his grave over being upstaged to such an extent.

From Worldwide Church of God Alumni message board 05/17/07

Wise Words from Kscribe: Why Armstrongism has little appeal for youth

2007-05-09T22:57:00.000-07:00

The young people of any religious group eventually leave due to the hardship's that the group imposes on them. Restrictions on personal freedoms, laws, brow beating and projections of fear, death, threats of Godly punishment from the pulpit, and may I add, pressure from parents (many church youth now disrespect) they all take there toll! The churches of god are the authors of their own destruction! This generation that is now entering their twenties is a generation that demands freedom and shuns control. These young people have grown up and saw the demise of HWA, the exposed corruption of the various cog groups and ministerial dictates that reflect the attitudes of the early 20th century era in American society. (Remember that Herbert tried his best to project on us, the life he lived in the early American 20th century. A time he relished from the memories his of his youth.) They have watched with horror when the Chinese government suppressed the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989. These young people despise governments of oppression and seek out freedom from oppression. These young people have learned from being objective and not suppressive thought. What cog youth would be in support of a third world tyrannical regime? Perhaps a few, but they may very well be the your minister in the days to come. I may also suggest that with the information on the Internet dealing with Herbert and the rest of the wanna be apostles of malpractice, only a fool, or natural born loser would be enticed. But then again, if they only bleed green for a year or two, it is after all PROFIT! What else matters in the corporate church?

from Gavin Rumney's Ambassador Watch blog

Anne Hanna's Report on the slow death of the WCG

2007-05-09T08:11:00.000-07:00

Hi,
You wrote: "I don't follow happenings in WCG much these days."
Not a lot IS happening.
It has lost the zeal of Armstrong's even Tkach Senior's time. That is understandable. The older WCG had BIG plans, huge vision and the excitement of what the future held when the campus sold.
The newer WCG under Dr. Tkach is very small as witnessed by the tiny HQ staff. HQ seems to be more administration and education in the theology of Tkach and company's choice. No big plans and little success. The one shining area is in Africa but as someone who knows church professions in mission ministry that is not uncommon at all. Africa is a MAJOR area for evangelicals who are finding more success than even the Mormons. The Pentecostals are converting them by the thousands.
The campus sold...so what. Tkach has squirreled the profits away and no one ever speaks of it again.
HQ seems to just make up the rules (for others to follow) and provide resources for self running congregations.
You also wrote: "Seems to me they made whatever point they were going to make years ago. Why bother to continue? Aside from providing a golden parachute for Tkach and a few assorted klingons I fail to see what purpose it serves. How long can they continue to run on empty?"
There are many factors to the WCG dying off.
1. There is a dwindling number of young people. Tkach has bemoaned that fact himself at a regional conference when he discussed his aging denomination.
2. Many congregations are so small they have little to offer the children they have. Other churchs offer vibrant programs. I have seen parents leave the WCG just for that practical purpose.
3. Small congregations lack funds and still have to give their 15-20% to HQ.
4. WCG HQ has SERIOUS accountability issues. The pyramid did NOT get turned upside down. The only major change was with the lack of income from losses HQ farmed a lot of the work out to local congregations. A smart move. Let the locals have control of the small stuff. HQ picks their pastor for them to choose from and what policies and rules they follow.
5. Sound doctrine is NOT protected. Judging by the speakers Tkach has selected for regional conferences the WCG may head into new territory. Tkach has more power in this respect than the Pope in Rome. Tkach is the church's single point of failure as he appoints the advisors and review committees.
6. Changes from the dictatorial government style of Herbert Armstrong will be risky. Tkach is not all that popular and there can be and probably is much ill will for past offenses both towards him and the general ministry.
7. Divisive policies like women in the ministry have been settled but the problem comes when it effects local areas. As a WCG friend said it's okay as long as it does not effect us.
8. Tired of the same old sales pitch. The Worldwide News was the most irrationally sunny publication I knew. All sunshine and flowers while the church crumbled. After a while people just tire of the promises and waiting for the church to grow.
and etc.
It's a steep uphill battle for the corporate WCG.
There are a lot of decent God fearing people in the Worldwide Church of God. I personally think they are wasting money and time trying to repair something so broken.
If the main goal is the Gospel then there are better ways for the local congregations to spread it.
A clean break would be free of the history of Herbert Armstrong and free of the consequences of Dr. Tkach's rule.
Dr. Tkach alienated most of the membership. They leave most often with a very sad story and a warning.
It is a warnng my friends and I have mentioned in our churches simply by way of telling the story of our Christian walk.

Was the death of Christ a suicide??? Hannah says, "NO WAY!!!"

2007-05-04T08:53:00.000-07:00

Hannah, of WCG Alumni message board answers a question to a certain question:

I've heard some fairly educated individuals make a case that Jesus had committed suicide. His purpose in coming to earth has been reported as being death for the sins of mankind. He deliberately went to the place where he knew he was going to be crucified. Could not that be considered suicide?

John 15:13
Quote:
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

No, I don't believe one could consider Christ death as a suicide.Our service men, police officers and other protectors of society put themselves in harm's way every day.Would educated people think that is suicide?

Intelligent quote of the day

2007-05-04T08:49:00.000-07:00

As far as this minister goes, in my book, his greater crime was leading an ACOG and ruining peoples' lives. Hopefully his death sent his followers a message that since the philosophy didn't work for their minister, it might be defective when applied to their own lives. After all, aren't true ministers supposed to have a double portion of the Holy Spirit?

WCG Alumni message board poster Byker Bob's thoughts on the Dugan tragedy

More on the Dugan tragedy

2007-05-03T09:34:00.000-07:00

Thank you WCG Alumni message board poster Pasedena Guy10 and his linked to U.S. television station WBKO based in Kentucky http://www.wbko.com/news/headlines/7301711.html . Plus here's a recent story from websit Exit and Support site about one's escape from the Sabbatarian cult at http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/dee/stories/sabb.htm .

Armstrongism is NOT a religion of peace

2007-05-02T23:03:00.000-07:00

The title above strikes strong emotions. I meant what I have said and stand by it. Neotherm has eloquently stated on Gavin's Ambassador Watch blog there was a spirit of murder in the historic WCG where "Armstrongites have advocated the exermination of Native Americans, Maoris and other indigenous peoples for years." but as Neotherm eloquently stated,"they would probably not lift a finger to accomplish it..." Am I still exaggerating. Well the late, great Armstrongist Refusenik Jesse Ancona had to say this about her stay in the historic WCG, "Totalitarian states [which WCG was truly one] have always intimidated and dehumanized its populations with ugliness -- itself a form of violence, and very effective at demeaning its intended victims. Members of the Worldwide Church of God thus learn to hate their own senses, and become oblivious to their own experience, as they are already oblivious to their own disappointment, and the pain and despair of their families." I can roughly remember at age 3 1/2 back in 1973 at Mt.Poccono, PA my mom was going to take me to the washroom for a spanking but I think I lucked out because there was some other woman lambasting her son like crazy. Some of you who grew up in Worldwide remember women's washrooms to spank children for even the smallest infraction. Even in the 2000's in the Living Church of God, we all heard about Terry Ratzman and what he did with his anger. We heard recently about the Lessard family. Now another tragedy which ended violently has happened with the suicide of an XCG cult leader after a standoff with police. Those who will stubbornly object to the title above may say, "Well the WCG was against war, we never picked up arms and fought! How could we be violent?"If I can quote CNN's Larry King and say, "That's one of the dumbest things I have ever heard!"You don't need arms to be violent. The examples that I have mentioned here should tell you something about the behaviour of Armstrongites. They are a very, very angry people and would like to harm you if they perceive you are in their way. Even the thought of harm is violence enough. So those who think that Armstrongism is a religion of peace, you know that denial is a river in Egypt.

Read 'em and weep about this latest tragedy at:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/520-sabbatharians
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/18133
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/18134

...but FYI Again has tough questions for God and the book for Job

2007-05-02T22:35:00.000-07:00

I admit I've never been really comfortable with the book of Job. Perhaps I've misunderstood it. But I never felt at ease with the idea that a just and loving God would beat the living daylights out of a man, torture him for days, perhaps even weeks, take away everything he had, and even go so far as to kill his family... all just to make a point about vanity.
Was there no other way that point could have been made? Was it really necessary to go that far? And really, why would God even bother to communicate with Satan in the first place? What have they got to say to one another? What good can possibly come from such correspondence?
I've read the book of Job from start to finish on many occasions. I've heard bible studies on it, read articles about it, etc. And even when I still felt close to God, I always found this book disturbing.
What is God going to say to Job's children in the resurrection? "Oh, I had you killed so I could make a point to your dad. Sorry about that. No hard feelings?"
To be very frank, I'm not entirely sure I want to know a God who does such things to those who serve Him. To His own children no less. I wouldn't treat a rabid dog the way God treats those He claims to love.
If this was meant to be comforting or encouraging, I'm afraid it missed the mark rather badly. Sorry. Better luck next time.

Intellligent quote of the day

2007-05-01T20:19:00.000-07:00

"God hasn't promised us tomorrow, but he has promised us eternity."

Tony Snow, U.S. White House Press secretary said to his Davidson College alumni this past weekend, while bravely battling his re-occurance of cancer

Stuff you will never hear in an XCG church nor in a lot other churches for that matter!

2007-04-27T22:12:00.000-07:00

This a sermon transcript at Good News Fellowship in Toronto given by Pastor Bruce J. Burgess

Good News April 21/07 Romans 7:7-25

You have heard me say before that the Christian life is a battle. And I believe that each and every one of us knows that, whether we would use those words or not. What I mean is that we experience it every day as we do battle against the temptations the world throws at us, as we struggle and agonize in the face of the injustices that are a part of this fallen world, as we try to cope with our own personal failures and shortcomings. While we might wish that the Christian life was all sweetness and light, triumph and victory, it is not. There is a great deal in this life that pushes the envelope pretty hard. We live in a world, for example, where an angry student can buy hand guns and indiscriminately murder innocent people in a senseless shooting rampage.

What scripture tells us is that there is a battle going on in our world and in our lives, between good and evil, God and the devil, if you will. The Apostle Paul made reference to this when he wrote to the church at Ephesus, “Put on the whole armour of God so that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.” The suggestion here is that the true battle is not against one another, but in resisting the forces of evil in a battle that is being waged on a more cosmic level. It appears that just as love and goodness are spiritual influences in our lives, so too hatred and violence seek to influence us.

In this passage in Romans, Paul speaks to us of the human condition that every one of us should be able to identify with – at least any of us who have ever tried to live righteously. He writes, “I do not understand my own actions. For I do not what I want, but I do the very thing I hate….I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.” I don’t know about you, but I can certainly identify with what he is sharing. I’ve had lots of experiences of agonizing before God, aware that I’ve blown it – again – put my foot in it – again – done the very thing I didn’t want to do – again – hurt someone I cared about – again!

I expect that most if not all of us can identify with what Paul is sharing. But I want you to notice how Paul explains it. I especially want you to notice how he personifies “sin.” He writes, “But sin, seizing an opportunity, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. “Sin, seizing an opportunity, deceived me.” “It was sin, working death in me.” Paul portrays sin as if it had a personality – as if it were alive – as if it had a mind of its own – as if it were actively plotting against us. And then in verse 17, Paul makes a very daring and potentially controversial statement to explain his tendency to do the very things he does not want to do. He writes, “In fact, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.” Listen again, “It is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.”
Now doesn’t that sound like a cop-out? Doesn’t that sound as if Paul is refusing to take personal responsibility for his choices and instead blames it on sin, as if sin had the power to force him to disobey? It reminds me of the words of a comedian that will date me: Flip Wilson. Some of you will remember his routine, and his phrase, “The devil made me do it!” That sounds exactly like what Paul is saying. And if it is true, if the devil did make me do it, then I am absolved from responsibility – it’s not my fault. And that is an attractive option. In fact, humans have been trying to avoid personal accountability from the beginning. You may remember that when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, and got caught by God, dam blamed Eve and even blamed God for creating Eve in the first place – “The woman you gave to be with me.” And Eve blamed the serpent.

But it’s important to note that the temptation to sin did not originate in either Adam or Eve – it came from an outside source – an outside source with a vested interest in trying to turn Adam and Eve against God. The desire to sin did not originate within Adam and Eve. It came from outside. And this is very important to understand. When God created us in God’s image, we were created with free will – the capacity to choose – the capacity to choose to follow God’s leading or not. God did not want our love or obedience unless it was freely offered, for love is not love unless it is offered freely and willing. If it is forced or coerced, it is not love. So God took an eternal risk by giving us free will. Our hearts, at the very start, were created by God, and they were good – indeed, they were designed for goodness – they rejoiced in God’s presence, they rejoiced in and respected God’s creation, they rejoiced in their relationship with God and each other. But because of the gift and curse of free choice, they gave in to temptation and gave sin a foothold. And we have been dealing with the consequence of that ever since. Once we allow sin to gain a foothold in us – it exerts its influence. Now that does not excuse us when we choose to act in ways that are not honouring to God or respectful of our neighbour. We are responsible for our actions. But it reminds us that we are not creating or inventing these temptations ourselves.

We might rather that God had organized the universe a bit better, removing the influence of evil, so that we would never experience temptation. Or we might wish that once we have made a commitment to Christ, God would shield us from temptation. But God did not. God does not. God did not shield Jesus from temptation – we see examples of that in scripture. And the author of Hebrews wrote, “We do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are.” Jesus can identify with what we go through, because he too was tempted and he too struggled to overcome temptation. He was able to, because he was one with the Father. And we can debate until we’re blue in the face, why God did it the way God did, but it will not change the fact that this indeed is the way the world works – good and evil exist in this life and they are engaged in a battle for our hearts.

We know that there are times when we give in to temptation – when we sin. Paul wants us to know that when we do sin, it is in response to the actions of the evil one. One of the ploys of the enemy, you see, is to convince us that we’re no good – we’ve never been good – we’ll never be any good – so there’s no point in even trying. And our experience can easily confirm that kind of logic. Even when we try to live according to God’s standards, we mess up and fall short and seem to be particularly prone to repeating our mistakes. And we can beat ourselves up about it – convince ourselves that we’re hopeless cases – doomed to disobedience. In fact, if we do too much of that, we can convince ourselves that we’re beyond God’s forgiveness. And that’s exactly what the enemy wants us to think! That’s sin’s goal – to get us to give up on ourselves, so that we’ll take that next logical step and give up on God.

Paul is not trying to defend his poor choices or refuse to take responsibility for his actions or give us an easy out. He is trying to help us understand the human condition and the very real influence that sin has in our life. Sin has a life of its own – it is an active force seeking to ensnare us – it dwells in our flesh and it seeks to twist us and deceive us and steer us away from God. When Paul writes, “It is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells in me,” he is trying to explain his experience of doing things he doesn’t want to do, which feels like some other force at work in him. And isn’t that our experience? When we mess up, aren’t there times when you wonder if it was someone else controlling us? Sometimes we cat in ways that feel totally contradictory to who we know we really are! It’s not for lack of trying or wanting that we are unable to be perfect. It’s not that we are all terrible, horrible, very bad people, always looking for some sin to commit! In fact, I expect that for most of not all of us we’re trying to do exactly the opposite! But like Paul we find that far too often, we end up doing some of the very things we don’t want to do.

When I was a brand new Christian, working on a ranch in Alberta, I struggled mightily with sin in my life. I don’t mean that I was sinning more then I did before I committed my life to Christ. Actually I’m sure I did less than before – God worked a pretty impressive miracle in me, given my previously colourful behaviours. But I was more aware of my sin than ever before, and in particular, in my marriage. There were serious problems and I seemed to be incapable of fixing them – I felt incapable of being the husband I wanted to be – and I wanted to be a loving husband, believe me! It seemed no matter how hard I tried, I kept doing the wrong thing, saying the wrong thing, acting in ways I didn’t want to act. And it was driving me crazy – time after time, after some unfortunate “episode,” I would repent in tears before God, prayed for God to change me, resolve to never do it again, whatever the “it” was. And yet I still made the same mistakes. One day, after a particularly unfortunate “episode,” I remember running out of our “Little House on the Prairie” in total despair. I had messed up again and I concluded that I was a lost cause, that it was hopeless and I actually contemplated ending my life. I seriously thought about getting a rope, looping it around the beam in the garage and hanging myself. Fortunately, I was never able to get my knot-tying badge in cub scouts, so I wasn’t much of a threat to myself. But I knew a despair that was rooted in my belief that I was wrong, I was sick, I was twisted, I was beyond hope. And for a number of years I agonized over my inability to avoid sin. I identified with Paul’s cry, “Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?”

I realize as I look back, that I was a Christian living under the law, rather than living under the grace of Jesus Christ. I was evaluating my faith life according to my ability to eliminate temptation and to be completely free from sin. It wasn’t working. It wasn’t working, because it doesn’t work that way. Sin is real and it is a part of our life this side of heaven and it will plague us as long as we draw breath. I was assuming it came out of me – it was my fault – I was to blame. And to a degree, I was to blame, because I did choose to act wrongly. But I have a different take on things now. I’ve tried to learn from Paul. And one of the things I believe he is trying to help us to understand is that we’re not evil – we’re assailed by evil. We’re not “bad,” we’re tempted to do bad things. Our hearts are not evil – they were made good by God – but there is a battle going on for who will rule in our hearts. We can’t stop temptation from happening – indeed, the very fact that we being tempted is an indication that God is in us and we are therefore a threat to the powers that seek to draw us into the darkness.

We can’t resist sin all by ourselves. We can’t overcome temptation by sheer determination. But it can make a difference when we are able to identify the source and recognize that it’s not us. So when temptation comes, we can recognize it for what it is – something from the outside, over which we do have some measure of choice. When we are tempted to sin, we can remind ourselves that this is not us talking, it is sin talking and we don’t have to listen. Indeed, we can remind ourselves that our hearts are not made for sin, but for righteousness. If we assume that sin springs from our hearts, then we are lost and truly wretched. But sin springs from the one who would seek to have us give up on ourselves and give up on God. And we are not going to do that! Why not? Because Jesus didn’t give up on us, but determined we were worth saving. Sin does not have the last word, God in Christ does. Thanks be to God

At least somebody gets it!

2007-04-26T07:22:00.000-07:00

Where was this article when I and many others needed it the most back when we were teenagers in the historic WCG?!! Michael Spencer of the called blog, Internet Monk hits the nail on the head again with his article called "How Religious Parents Royally Screw Up Their Children". It is sooo true and should not be refuted! It is a sad thing that usually religious parents lack a lot of common sense in raising their children.

Read Michael Spencer's explanation here at http://www.internetmonk.com/articles/M/messup.html

Armstrongites: modern day Pharisees or Sadducees

2007-04-25T22:06:00.000-07:00

Actually this website at http://www.bible.ca/neo-sadduceeism.htm argues that Armstrongism is a form of Neo-Sadduceeism. Very interesting read.

Wise words from Koey Koala on what kind of Christian he is!

2007-04-25T21:12:00.000-07:00

1. I am a mainline Protestant, believing in our freedom from authoritarian religion.
2. I am an Evangelical, believing in the Bible and the Gospel.
3. I am a theological liberal, believing that Christ's love ought to be spread liberally.
4. I am a post-evangelical, believing that the next move of the Holy Spirit is the right direction.
5. I am a fundamentalist, believing that what Christ taught ought to be the most important fundamentals of our faith.
6. I am a charismatic...believing that all of the gifts of the Spirit are for today, even though they are often faked.
7. I am a catholic (small c), believing in the universality of the church.
8. I am an orthodox (small o), believing that what the Holy Spirit has led the church to believe for 2,000 years is not to be flippantly dismissed by we who are Protestants.

Another blog from a former XCGer

2007-04-23T21:24:00.000-07:00

Another blog describing the Armstrongite experience has arrived. It is called Shadows of WCG by J. This bright and intelligent person is a splendid writer describing aptly of how the historic WCG was. No whitewashing, no excusing. The way it really was. For those who want to live in an irresponsible dreamworld of that it "wasn't that all bad", this blogsite is strictly not for you and you can go other XCG sites that live in denial and that live in a dangerous dreamworld. For those who are interested in one person's view and experience go to http://shadowsofwcg.blogspot.com/ for some talented writing skills. May this blog be around for years, perhaps decades to come to make life for the die-hard Armstrongites a little more uncomfortable.

Wise words from Neotherm: Fundies are bullies

2007-04-23T20:39:00.000-07:00

There is a spirit that connects all fundamentalists together. It is the spirit of being a bully. This attitude is easy to find among evangelicals and Armstrongites. What these fundamentalist use to bully others is Biblical scripture. They talk about Hell, the Tribulation and the End of the Age with great energy and enthusiasm. And through fear they hope to capture and enslave the hearers. What I find to be revealing is that seldom have I ever detected a spirit of love in these declarations of present or impending diaster. I find, instead, a spirit of resentment and a desire to harm. I believe that Armstrongites view with glee the misery recounted daily by the news media. The attitude of the bully actually permeated Armstrongism. I have been around many of the leading men in the WCG who were at Big Sandy in the Seventies. The word "bully" describes them accurately. They were people who fully leveraged themselves using the hierarchical structure of command. Another phrase that comes to mind is "loveless". When interacting with these people I never got a sense that they motivated by love. While this is an extradinarily strong proof that Armstrongism is a non-Christian cult, it is also a very personal experience that does not serve well to inform everybody. You had to be there. While the mouth is the principal weapon among these people, I am not surprised that Dart would reach for a shooting iron. It is all in the same spirit. And besides, Armstrongites have advocated the exermination of Native Americans, Maoris and other indigenous peoples for years. While they would probably not lift a finger to accomplish it, the spirit of murder is still present.

Intelligent quote of the day

2007-04-19T07:52:00.000-07:00

If Jesus Christ came today in human form and preached to the COG's, the results would be no different than they were 2000 years ago. Some few would listen to Him and heed His words. But most would envy His wisdom and power and would resent His indictments of their hypocrisy. They would crucify Him yet again, just as their Pharisee forefathers did.And they would do it for exactly the same reasons: they would see His teaching as a challenge to their authority.

---FYI Again on the WCG Alumni Message board complimenting Byker Bob's thread on the chilling idea of Jesus being an Armstrongite (which again we are glad that he was NEVER one in the first place!)

Intelligent quotes of the day: condemnations on XCG's insensitivity on the Virgina Tech tragedy

2007-04-18T21:00:00.000-07:00

Editor's note: We at Post WCG Life and Theology share mourning and loss of the over thirty people killed at Virginia Tech campus earlier this week. We also firmly support people (like those on Gary Scott's blog XCG) who have soundly condemned the insensitive and unchristian comments from the XCG splinters who have exploited this tragedy for their own purposes. My message to those who condemned the XCG's cold and heartless statements, do not back down! You got two thumbs---way up!!!

Unfortunately, I must edit Richard Ames’ statement to more accurately reflect the truth.

It should read as follows: “From Brookfield to Kosovo, and from Blacksburg to Baghdad, our world is mired in violence, pain, and suffering. We wish we had the answers, brethren, but events of the recent past prove that we don’t know any more than the people to whom we condescendingly refer as ‘the world.’

At the risk of sounding somewhat twisted, I must also ask, what if the grim reaper, when he was deciding that a bunch of people needed to die at VT, had picked a disgruntled and depressed teenager from Flurry’s or Pack’s congregations to do the deeds, rather than a Korean immigrant? Would it cause any soul searching, and maybe some reforms to get rid of some of the anachronistic, disfunctional teachings of the ACOGs? I had begun to think that Brookfield might be reponsible some of the recent liberalization and reform at LCG, but on the heels of Ames’ quotation, obviously not!

---Byker Bob

Well yes, when families are grieving, it’s meaningless and a waste of time to comfort them and shed tears with them. It’s so much better to tell them about the eagerly-anticipated great tribulation and seven last plagues and second coming of Christ and second resurrection.
It just shows you how out of touch these Armstrongist mouthpieces are with reality, and how hard and stone-cold-dead their hearts are: in times of horror and pain, if you started mouthing words about the great tribulation and whatnot, you can be sure that the mourners will stare at you in utter disbelief, wondering just what it was that caused you to go off your nut. It’s your words that they’d regard as meaningless, not the caring words of comfort they receive.
Even more, right after a mentally ill person has murdered your loved ones, the last thing you want is to be accosted by someone intent on sharing his waaaaay-out-of-the-mainstream religious beliefs with you. You’d surely wonder if all the crazies were coming out of the woodwork just to make your life a living hell.
Only someone whose natural human feelings were severely atrophied could make such a comment as meaningless words of “healing”.
Another observation: contrary to the Flurryites, good child rearing is important, but it’s no sure protection against mental illness, which often has nothing to do with how a child is raised.
Well, these reactions to the massacre are just appalling for their opportunism and cruel, uncharitable, uncaring utter cluelessness.

---Jared Olar

Ruling over sinful thoughts is tough work.
The usual mind-control diatribe: if bad things happen, it’s all your fault because you don’t pray enough, don’t fast enough, don’t tithe enough, don’t study enough, and don’t work hard enough to banish “sinful thoughts”.... It is impossible to be in control of your thoughts if you have a chemical imbalance or are otherwise mentally afflicted.
The sick thinking of just one individual can bring tragedy to a multitude of people. Therefore, we each have an enormous responsibility to rule over and subdue our own sinful thoughts.
I love how UCG tries to scare us by implying we are all capable of slipping up (by not “subduing” sinful thoughts) and will thereby cause us to wreak the same kind of havoc as a mentally deranged individual with a clear history of troubles.

---John

...The problem is that they think that prayer will solve the problem. Some of the xcg’s probably think the man was demon possessed- and not mentally ill.
Their advice to someone that has asked for healing and hasn’t received it is to re-examine oneself and continue to pray about it. It doesn’t occur to them that the answer was no and that the individual should seek out competent healthcare.
With regard to the individual at Virginia Tech, it looks like the system failed to help him. The warning signs were all there, he was referred to counseling, and even the police were involved with him at one point for stalking. At one of those points he should have been sent to the loony bin for treatment. Now there are 30+ young lives snuffed out and a Holocaust survivor as well. The families and friends of those people need consolation, not false propoganda about The World Tomorrow, or to hear about how observing the sabbath, tithing, and prayer will spare them from a similar fate in the Great Tribulation.

---Charlie Kieran

Wise Words from Byker Bob: Imagined if Jesus Christ behaved like HWA???

2007-04-16T08:32:00.000-07:00

What if Jesus had behaved as an ACOG? Boy, wouldn't the New Testament be a totally different document? I believe this speculative topic is fair game, too, since the ACOGs profess to be practicing Christianity in the same manner as the early Christians.Just in briefly pondering this topic, I've come up with some very interesting changes that would be required. I would guess that some of our other members will come up with some additional contributions.First, we'd need to radically alter the work that Jesus and the disciples did. If they behaved in the Armstrongian mode, Jesus would constantly be hammering people for their tithes and offerings, so that opulent buildings could be built to house and train additional young disciples, and to enhance Jesus' credibility amongst the world leaders of the day. He would also be chauferred from city to city in a fine Egyptian chariot to preach his message. The message would need to be changed from one of salvation, to one dominated by the end of the age, to capitalize on the value of scare, and stimulating additional donations.There would be no concern for the world at large, only for those who believed and were part of Jesus' church. Instead of reprimanding Peter for cutting off the Roman Centurion's ear, and rather than heal him, he'd probably say, "Oh well, he's not one of us, so let the dead bury the dead!"We'd also need to edit the passages concerning miraculous healings, so that perhaps 99% of the healings failed, with the "patients" being ridiculed as "dumb sheep", and blamed for their lack of faith. Rather than teaching that the Sabbath is made for man, Jesus would be required to select and carefully choose certain requirements from the 613 Levitical laws, and to insist that they be kept to the nth degree.He would not be concerned with feeding the masses physical food. Perhaps those who were baptized would get a morsel or two, but largely they'd be told to start tithing so that God would bless them.When his disciples asked him serious hard and deep questions, he would compare them to Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, and tell them that they were in rebellion, and in the bonds of Satan. No way would he be patient with them, and try to minister to their deep inner needs as he was with Thomas. In fact, Thomas would have been told, "My way or the highway".To elude capture by Romans and Jews, Jesus would have travelled to a place outside of his would be captors' jurisdiction, where he maintained a fine third or fourth home, and kept a fine sailing vessel ready to travel on short notice. He would also have a team of attorneys and possibly an armed bodyguard to defend him.Finally, Jesus message would need to incorporate the total valuelessness of the human experience. Humans are totally secondary to the law. They are only important if they obey. The minute they exercise free will apart from the law, they are to be blotted out for eternity.

---Editor's note: We can thank God Almighty that when he sent His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ was NEVER, EVER like an Herbert Armstrong or an Armstrongite. Amen!

Wise words from KMS: Advice for Glenn

2007-04-10T07:43:00.000-07:00

Glenn:

I think you suffer somewhat from coming into the COG world at a late date. If I recall from another post, you had some contact with WCG in the '80's, then faded away, then got serious in the mid '90's right about the time things started falling apart.
The problem with the ACOG's is that they've pretty much always done what you describe, only in the past it was easier to hide and there was no other place to run. Gerald Waterhouse would proclaim in sermons that Harmstrong had the right to take the members tithes and set fire to it in the middle of the Sydney Harbor bridge. GTA said that he was too important to the work, ergo, God overlooks his marital infidelities. Tkach Sr. writes himself a check out of third tithe in order to not pass up a rare investment opportunity. Jet fuel for the airplane gets paid out of the widow and distressed fund (third tithe).
Every year at the FOT the ministry received a subsidy to attend (since they didn't have to tithe, being "Levites"), driving their corporate cars, staying in the finest hotels - and all this after haranguing the members about not spending their second tithe properly. Mis-spending would include things that lasted beyond the term of the FOT, such as clothing, tires, etc. No matter that between taxes and tithes most WCG members were living off of less than half their gross income.
It should be no surprise that the self proclaimed heirs of Harmstrong should wish to continue in their ways of privilege, but unfortunately for them everyone received a dose of NC theology and the concepts it brings, whether they ended up believing it or not. Besides, if one group gets to be too annoying, you can leave and attend somewhere else. The lake of fire is not longer the only option.
The other systemic problem the ACOG's have is an over infatuation with the law and with ruling. The law was emphasized, and grace was not. Fresh college grads were sent out to tell their local members how to live: out with white sugar, out with bleached flour, don't buy red cars. Of course, they don't say those things anymore, but no one has given up the authority to do just that if they please.
But law and ruling also resulted in a bent understanding of our relationship with God. In a time when Jesus said that the Comforter would lead us into all truth, the ACOG's place their ministry between us and Christ. In a time of grace, they preached law and wages of sin. Are you truly picsed off at God? Perhaps he never really said that he was to be your butler.
That's one thing I had to wrestle with. I was a good cult boy, followed the law as best I could, certainly better than the heathen around me because I tithed, I kept the sabbath and Holy Days, and prayed diligently for the work and Harmstrong. Why did not God bless me like that man in Psalms 1? In other words, howcome my butler didn't do what he was supposed to do?
The trouble was my thinking was still colored by an overbearance of law, not grace. Paul tells us we are saved by grace - are we then so inconsistent to think that God rewards us according to law?
Just before his crucifixtion, Jesus called his disciples his friends, and we are his friends if we follow his command to love one another. Consider the blessings in your own life - does your wife love you because you so perfectly keep the law? Certainly your care and love for your children has no basis in law keeping, but is a grace you extend to them. Certainly you have rules of how everyone is to behave in your home, but do you love each other less when they are broken from time to time? I think not.
I didn't mean to preach, so I'll stop with that and just recommend to you any of Philip Yancey's books. I think I have about half a dozen of them or so now, and Where is God when it hurts may be one that you'd find helpful now. If I remember correctly, he contrasts two people with severe injuries: one party stayed bedridden and prayed diligently every day for healing, being very confident that one day tha healing would come. Another party learned to live with injury, getting about in a wheelchair and leading a productive life. I can't make judgements here about who had the greater faith - but one party sought only one answer, while the other looked for other answers to how life is to be lived.
When I left WCG, I felt that my church had already left me. One or two people may have called from the local group, but most left off contact when I stopped attending. I don't fault them, as they were only doing what had been taught for years, and apparently still lives on today. When I tried talking about these things with friends that stayed in WCG I got a response that it was "an emotional subject", as if everyone had been given some talking points. JLF was a place where we could all freely talk, even if it did get raucous in the early days.
If you can bear a suggestion, I recommended taking another look at what God is really like. After all, friends are not your butler.

KMS

Smart words from an ex-Pentecostal

2007-04-09T21:59:00.000-07:00

This guy makes a lot of sense. He said, "If anyone says they are an Apostle---run away from him as far as you can!" Too bad you can't put this guy in a time machine and tell us in the historic WCG to run away from HWA as far as you can! Oh well! If I see this guy in person, I am buying him a Molson Canadian! Enjoy!

Intelligent quote of the day

2007-04-07T21:39:00.000-07:00

We (really including Christianity as a whole) have lost far too much sight of Jesus. Instead we worry far too much about keeping the "bad, evil people away" to keep ourselves "unspotted" somehow---yet, Jesus would condemn us as soundly as he condemned the Pharisees for mouths like the rottenness of graves and being full of decay.My hope is that there actually IS an "emerging" church, that sees the problems that modernity brought onto Christianity. It is time for reformation throughout the body of Christ...

---Big Red 76 discussing the desperate need for the Christian church for drastic reformation in light of Glenn Mattson's comments on the excesses of the XCG splinters on the Worldwide Church of God Alumni Board

FYI AGAIN on the state of the XCG's and reveals his secret identity!

2007-04-07T21:06:00.000-07:00

Personal perspective on the state of the COG's I originally started writing this message as a private e-mail, but as I got into it I decided it would be appropriate to instead post it publicly. Basically it's a broad "state of the COG's" overview from my perspective. Up front I want to make it clear that I'm not "picking on" the COG's. I'm well aware that many of the problems I relate here are not unique to the COG's and can in fact be found in religions and political systems around the world and that such things have been happening for thousands of years - as Solomon noted, there's nothing new under the sun. I single out the COG's here only because that is my background, not because I believe they have a monopoly on such problems.As I indicated in previous messages on JLF, my current spiritual state is pretty much nil. I still believe more or less the same things I have for years but I'm very much disillusioned with religion in general and the COG's in particular - not so much for their core teachings, but for their way of doing things. The WCG and its spin off's - or ACOG's (Armstrong COG's) as some prefer to call them - always seem to find a way to do the wrong thing no matter how many opportunities they have to get it right. As many have told me over the years, an apple doesn't fall far from the tree. The practices and policies of Herbert Armstrong continue to influence everything these Churches do.On the left you have the current WCG. It may have thrown out much of Armstrong's doctrine, but it definitely retains his abusive "government" and cultic style of "leadership". On the right you have the HWA purists like Gerald Flurry's PCG and David Pack's RCG who have finely honed that abusive government into little gulags. These are instruments of finely crafted deception, expertly tuned to attract anyone who has ever been caught up in the personality cult surrounding Herbert Armstrong.In between these extremes you have groups like UCG and LCG who are schizophrenically trying to both embrace and distance themselves from HWA. And sprinkled throughout are all the "splinters" and "slivers" (as David Pack calls them - as if he and his group stood apart from and above all the rest). These range in size from a small handful meeting in a living room to a few hundred meeting in tiny groups around the world.To one degree or another all of them compete for a rapidly shrinking pool of aging tithe payers - generally current or former WCG members. A few of them have outreach programs to try to gain new converts, but such efforts are only marginally effective. Truly "new" members (people who never heard of Herbert Armstrong) are few and far between.As competitors many of them routinely "betray and hate one another" - like so many predators fighting over a carcass. And to the degree they practice HWA's "government" they also betray and routinely demonstrate hate towards their own members like a predator eating its own children. Thus there is a steady stream of dazed, confused and disillusioned members either moving from one "fellowship" to another or dropping out of the COG's altogether.It's not all bad. There are some groups which appear to be more or less benign and have not become addicted to power and lording it over others. And all of these groups (even the most extreme) have members, deacons, elders, ministers, etc who love God and are genuinely trying to serve and give and do what is right.But in many cases these people are fighting a losing battle against an irresistible tide. There is tremendous pressure on them to compromise and betray their own principles. They are told to "be a team player" and "get with the program" and to stop being "self willed". It's all too easy for even the most honest and upright servants to cave into such pressures, soil their garments, and begin to beat their fellow servants and drink with the drunkards.Most ironically, such people are often "disfellowshipped" or "marked" for doing *PRECISELY* what their Church teaches and claims to practice. As if by magic, "truth" apparently loses its validity when applied to a "minister" or to a favored lap dog or upper bracket tithe payer. Iniquity abounds, and the love of many is fiercely and mercilessly driven to become cold.Am I being overly harsh? I don't think so. I say all these things based not only on my own experiences but on the experiences of *MANY* others as well. Through e-mails, phone calls, internet forums etc, the stories are all a little different, and yet nauseatingly familiar. Early on I tended to ignore such accounts, writing them off as "a root of bitterness"... until I experienced first hand things I had been warned would probably occur. The Bible says in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses a matter is established. In the mouths of a great many such witnesses it is beyond any shadow of any doubt.I know and count as friends many individuals in these groups - people who have proven themselves over time to be truly "of God". But as a whole, I cannot believe most of these Churches are truly "of God" as their names all claim them to be. Taken as a whole, if these groups truly have the love of God shed abroad in their hearts then I'm not sure I want to know such a God. Jesus said his disciples would be known by the love they have towards one another. What can then be said about a bunch of competing, backstabbing, spiteful little groups trying to destroy one another and all the while claiming an exclusive franchise on God? What an ungodly and unholy mess! No wonder people are so confused.

Glenn W. Matteson

aka FYI Again

Editors note: FYI Again=Glenn Mattson??? Wow!!! What an 180 degree turn for the better! Pure evidence that God is not finished with ALL of us yet while in his grace. Though Glenn is at a downturn in his walk, may he still experience the promise that Jesus gives to all believers---to have life and have it more abundantly.

I have seen Mark Tabladillo...

2007-04-07T11:49:00.000-07:00

...and he looks like this!

Mr. JLF himself ALSO following a trend. He has his own MySpace.com site at http://profile.myspace.com/marktab ! For those wondering about his JLF (Jesus Loves Fellowship) message board, go here at http://forums.delphiforums.com/JLF7/start . It is mainly former WCGers now Evangelical Christians but some of those from the XCGs (Richard Burkard) and XCG independants (Old Sheep) add their two cents as well.

Jesus Christ...the Real Superman!

2007-04-06T22:34:00.000-07:00

Courtesy of my favourite invention youtube.com. Have a happy and meaningful Holy Week (or Holy Day) season!

A bold, brave, courageous and an honest apology from an ex-LCGer

2007-04-04T22:18:00.000-07:00

...Some of you may remember me from the original JLF, where I was a regular from 1998 - 2001 when it shut down. At that time I was a member of and apologist for Rod Meredith's Living Church of God (LCG). I had fully bought into Rod Meredith's vision of "Restoring Apostolic Christianity" and continuing steadfast in the "faith once delivered" as practiced in the Worldwide Church of God (WCG) during the ministry of Herbert W. Armstrong.
Much has changed for me since those days. While I still basically believe core COG doctrines, I cannot accept those things which were added by men to establish and maintain a bizarre personality cult and an abusive, controlling cult government. Nor can I accept things which in 20/20 hindsight I can see were based on little more than uneducated (and unenlightened) speculation, WAG's (wild assed guesses) and self exaltation.
I stopped considering myself a "member" of LCG (or any other Church) back in 2002. I continued to attend with LCG semi regularly for a few years because I had so many friends there and didn't know what else to do. I spent a lot of time and effort checking out other COG's during that time, and while I learned some interesting things (and had some good, bad, and ugly experiences) I found none that I really felt comfortable with. I have not regularly attended any COG since last summer. I don't expect that will change any time soon - if ever.
As much as I'd like to tell the story of how I got from point A to point Z, at present I'd rather not go into it on a public forum. I still have lots of friends in various COG's and I wouldn't want to be responsible for bringing the roaring mouse wrath of "God's Government" du jour down upon them. I know from experience that some of these pathetic little "Governments" have people watching various COG oriented forums and blogs, so for my friends sake I'll have to be careful what I say. They can no longer threaten me with being "disfellowshipped" or "marked", but they *can* get to people whose friendship I still value.
Some of my old friends gave up on me as soon as they found out I wasn't 100% behind the party line. Some of you may remember my old buddy from the original JLF board who went by the names "Ranger" and "Baldy". We were close friends for a number of years and kept in regular contact via phone and e-mails. I finally admitted to him in 2005 that I had doubts about LCG (even this was an understatement), at which point he decided we should have no further contact. The few e-mails I've sent him since then have gone unanswered. I'd be surprised if I ever hear from him again.
I know some of you will find all of this very familiar because you've been where I'm at. Some of you even tried to warn me years ago. I thank you for that. Even though it may have seemed I wasn't listening, some of it did sink in and I remembered those warnings when I needed to.
I would also like to sincerely apologize to you all for the arrogance and decidedly un-Christian, in-your-face combativeness I regularly engaged in during that time. I won't try to make any excuses for it because there are none. All I can say is that I've learned a few things since then and I don't think that way any more - in fact I haven't for several years now. The only reason I didn't write this a few years ago is a) I hadn't yet worked up the courage to do so, and b) I still had a few more lessons to learn.
I am not bitter or angry about all this, although I certainly do have regrets - the wasted time and lost opportunities most of all. But what's past is past and life's too short to wallow in coulda, shoulda, woulda been's. For now I'm pretty much focused on getting reacquainted with life - family, friends, hobbies, etc.
As for being a Christian, I am uncertain what I will do down the road. I still retain the core COG beliefs, even if I no longer do much about them. I admit my faith - such as it ever was - is pretty much a thing of the past. I know that at some point I'm going to have to come to terms with God, but until I've cleared my head a bit more I am in no hurry to do this.

---Glenn Mattson describes his "post-"L"CG life and theology "on Mark Tabladillo's JLF. Like my post-WCG life and theology, Glenn's too, is an adventure and may he be glad that it is worth it!

Intelligent Quote of the Day: Celebrating Easter

2007-03-28T20:39:00.000-07:00

I realize you and I hold different views on the observance of Easter and Christmas, and while I appreciate and respect why observing either would be repugnant and unthinkable to you, observing the day is no longer problematic to me.

Of course observing ANY day "unto the Lord" is a matter of personal conscience, and so it isn't my objective to persuade you that you are doing something wrong in terms of which days you observe (or do not observe). I believe that the matter of conscience includes more than my own view any particular activity -- part of what we do as brothers and sisters in Christ has to do with how it affects or impacts others, including unbelievers.

I Cor. 10: 23, speaks of that principle in a discussion of the conscience issues relating to eating with unbelievers. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.
25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."
27If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake -- 29the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?
31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

Paul's focus was to facilitate in the saving of souls, and he realized that while these matters were meaningless to him personally (had no power over him because of Christ Jesus), others might stumble over them, even Paul's Jewish brothers who would look upon Paul's worship of Jesus as idolatry. Paul had freedoms based on his conscience (that all things are God's creation, and that he could freely eat or not eat, again, according to the situation presented to him, and each situation would be judged not according to HIS personal conscience but the conscience of the person he was dealing with).
I'd like to say that were I to participate in an Easter sunrise service today (and I believe I have only done this once in my life when I was a child), I would be worshipping Jesus Christ. For me, it is a day of commemoration that I have chosen to participate in for that commemorative purpose. Before I came into contact with Herbert Armstrong's ministry, my mind was not under a cloud of doubt when observing Easter. After Herbert Armstrong introduced that the day of commemoration of Jesus' resurrection was "tainted by idolatry" then my mind doubted that the commemoration was "clean."
It would have seared my conscience to have observed Easter with the Armstrong mindset, which was born of the cog7 mindset. In preferring Paul's advice to Herbert's advice I see that all of the creation is God's -- he said all of his creation was "good." And surely there is no scripture in the holy bible that says Jesus should not be worshipped on a certain day (or to the point here, on Easter Sunday specifically at sunrise). And while I am fully aware of the Ishtar, I am reminded that ALL THINGS (and that includes Ishtar) are under Jesus' feet. Whatever link Easter has with Ishtar is destroyed in the presence of the only man worthy of worship -- Jesus.
Ishtar is nothing to me. For an idol to mean something to me, I have to believe it has power in my life, and Ishtar has none.

---Janey, a participant of Mark Tabladillo's Jesus Love Fellowship message board explaining to her friend, the reasons why she celebrates Easter in her post-WCG life and theology.

If the United Church of God wants to live on in the 2020's, 2030's, 2040's and beyond...

2007-03-27T13:40:00.000-07:00

On Gavin Rumney's Ambassador Watch blog, it is come to some kind of informal consensus that the United Church of God will live on while the PCG, RCG, David Hulme's Church of God, and all the other insignificant splinters will finally die (good riddance!). If the United Church of God really wants to be a successful church and have countless opportunities at their finger tips, they need to listen to this:

1) Time to have a deeper meaning of grace. It is not merely God forgiving us in doing a sin, it is a much more complex dynamic. It is not license to sin, rather an active agent of God that cancels sin and is greater than sin. At least the Church of God (Seventh Day) unserstands this. It is time for the United Church of God, like the Christian Reformed Church believe that "the law" is used for "sanctification", not "justification". So if anyone thinks I am preaching antinomianism, really simply does not know what I am talking about.

2) Accept the triune nature of God. Read Robert M. Bowman Jr.'s book Why Should You Believe in The Trinity and James R. White's The Forgotten Trinity. These are two men who are great scholars who spent a heck of a lot of time in their research and committed to the best of their knowledge to biblical truth. To say they are "Satan's scholars" is just plain childishness. If you are bold and if you dare go to open your mind for once go to http://www.amazon.ca/Forgotten-Trinity-James-White/dp/1556617259/ref=sr_1_1/701-2583050-6300326?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174769766&sr=8-1 and http://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_ss_b/701-2583050-6300326?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=why+should+you+believe+in+the+trinity . On top that, a possible alternative to the God Family doctrine is "theosis" which the Greek Orthodox Church believes. "Children of God" will not suffice for the members. Read more about theosis at OrthodoxWiki at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blogs .

3) Log on to http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/ . I actually attend this fellowship (though it's not really a church, but that's another story for next time) in Toronto. It is probably high time that the leaders in the UCG study this site too. You can have a grace-based Sabbatarian denomination. Don't let those who are overzealous in their New Covenant Theology argue with you and assert otherwise.

4) Keep it's Hebraic-heritage! Let the UCG celebrate the Sabbath and the Holy Days. There is absolutely no need to change it to please anybody (like evangelicals who ignorant about them)--but here is the deal, don't tell people that they have to give up their jobs and become seasonally or pemanantely unemployed or end up in a poverty cycle if they can't keep it in its entirety. This nonsense that has happened and is happening in the splinters needs to stop!

5) If the UCG choose to be a Sabbatarian evangelical denomination, the next generation of ministers need to go to Andrews University in Michigan. Ditch this Ambassador Bible Center nonsense and get your education from some more detailed meticulous research that has been around a heck of a long time than the WCG and it's splinters combined. Hey, Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi has written two scholary books on the Holy Days (I even have one of them about the fall feasts!). Having Andrews support your theology will bring a long way and a more reputable one. Oh yea, Andrews is just a start, how about Fuller, or even Princeton to add on a full-time minister's study?

5) To officially renounce that the United Church of God is a continuation of a movement started in the historic WCG and boldly declare the United Church of God is a movement soley and entirely on Jesus Christ. UCG's answer to Steve Colbert, Richard Burkard may say, "Isn't that has always been that way for the UCG, Felix???" C'mon, who are you kidding??? It doesn't take an Einstein to conclude that in practice, no. The UCG has been dedicated to the so-called "18 truths" founded by Herbert W. Armstrong, most which were proven in serious doctrinal error. If UCG is serious basing itself totally on Jesus Christ, it is time to be practical, to be bold and remove the wool over people's eyes and the time to do it is NOW!

6) It is time involve ministers and members in the organization. Scrap this insane notion of a division of the clergy and the laity. The UCG should never have hierarchy like the WCG nor a totally congregational governance. A Presbyterian-Congregational model which is a compromise between both extremes is probably the best fit. The UCG member who takes pride in being "intellectually lazy" and takes joy in being spoonfed everything should be considered an annoying dinosaur.

7) Oh yes, some more radical stuff!!! Reconsider your tithing practices. Oh yes, if you guys believe in the triple tithe---it is time to END IT! Of course like a country, a church needs revenue to survive as an organism. Fine! Why don't you consider ONE single tithe with three different uses. You think church revenue will decline? If you guys like conservative ideology, it's time you practice some of their concepts! You believe that tax cuts help? Well, tithe cuts WILL WORK!!! Revenues will go up! Read Restoration Foundation's magazine article on How God Sees Tithing at http://www.restorationfoundation.org/volume_2/2118.htm . OR if you want REALLY, REALLY RADICAL stuff somebody was nice enough to give excerpts from a book on Mark Tabladillo's message board, Jesus Loves Fellowship, from the late Ernest Martin on tithing and I will bring it here:

Ernest L.Martin's website (remember him?) had a booklet out, The Tithing Dilemma.
Extracts from booklet (part one of three):
The bottom line was "It is a sin ('missed the mark') against biblical teaching for preachers, priests, evangelists, rabbis and theologians to receive and spend the tithe God ordained for Israel even if the tithe is used to teach the truth."
"It is equally a sin for the laity to give the tithe..."
The Israelites were strictly ordered by God to pay the tithe (the tenth)...to one group only...the Levites who (among other things) ministered in the Temple (Nu. 18:21)"
The Levites in turn were to give one tenth of that tithe to the priests (Nu. 18:25-28) who did not tithe at all...With no Temple, the major factor for tithing does not exist..."
JEWS DO NOT TITHE TODAY
ELM said he had concerns about tithing 35 years ago. He stated, "I telephoned three rabbis in the Los Angeles area for their explanation. Much to my dismay, all three independently of each other informed me that no religious Jew should tithe today." One rabbi said, "If any member of my synagogue paid tithe in the scriptural manner, he would be disobeying the law of God--he would be sinning against God."
The rabbi explained that though he was the chief rabbi of his synagogue, he was not a Levite...he was descended from the tribe of Judah and was therefore not eligible to recieve tithe.
A HISTORY OF TITHING
The initial illustration is the account of Abraham and Melchizedek. Moses required that the tithe be paid ony on the increase from land and animals. Abraham did not work to produce any of the spoils...spoil does not represent increase. There was no biblical teaching which showed that Abraham was required to give a tenth. For hundred years later Moses legislated what should be done with any spoil (Nu. 31:9, 27-29).
Moses and Tithing
At Mt. Sinai the Old Covenant with the ten commandments and many other laws was given to the Israelites. "Remarkably, there is not one hint of tithing..."

I can think of more suggestions (and if anyone else has more, I would like to hear from you) but I will stop here. The question remains: will the United Church of God look at my proposals? I am under NO illusion that the harsh answer is "DEFINATELY NO!" As a result, the UCG will just be another Armstrongite organization that will be just surviving, not truly succeding in the 2010's, 20's, 30's until it shrivels up and dies sometime this century. It will probably gobble up already dead splinters. On the other hand, UCG's answer to Steve Colbert, Richard Burkard may remark, "If there is an apocalyptic event in this century, the UCG may grow." He may be right but if the UCG still wants to be a pretend "Mr.Rogers" Armstrongite cult, it does not deserve to grow and prosper in anyway. If they become an "Armstrongist Refusenik" denomination, they deserve to make their revolutionary mark in Christendom. If they are some Generation Xers (and even Yers) in the United Church of God, when their time is ready to enter the clergy, I can only pray to God that these guys make the intelligent, wise and noble choice!

Another Smart Christian

2007-03-23T21:43:00.000-07:00

I have always loved Tony Campolo. Never agreed with him on every single issue but I have loved his approach to the gospel and Christianity any day over the religious right's (in which I believe they have become our modern neo-Pharisees). Here is some of his wise words on CBC's George Stroumboulopouls' The Hour at http://www.cbc.ca/thehour/video.php?id=1401 .

I met Dr. Campolo at the People's Church a few years back. Like myself, he has high praise for Bill Maher (of HBO's Real Time) calling Bill a "very intelligent person". I can only conclude, great minds think alike.

Wise words from KMS: The pathetic state of existence of the XCG's

2007-03-17T23:54:00.000-07:00

I spent some time today wandering around some of the various COG websites. Most of the sites I visited were part of UCG, but there were several others. I won't bore you with the alphabet soup, and after all, isn't all the same formula no matter which group it is?
You need a descriptive word that implies a church with a reach around the world. You need the term Church of God. You need a fearless leader. Fearless Leader must follow in Harmstrongs footsteps, slavishly. (Indeed, we now see splinters from splinters because the initial Fearless Leader does not really follow the truth as once delivered by Harmstrong enough).
You need a ministry composed of Ambassador College graduates. There needs to be a work that includes a magazine and a radio or TV program. Internet broadcasting is a possible alternative. You meet largely in rented halls, have youth programs, singles programs, prayer lists, deacons, elders, or just plain "hosts" to play tapes for the 8 people that comprise the church in a local burg.
In short, over the last 12 years nothing has changed. The names may be slightly different, but only to avoid copyright lawsuits. Where has the growth been since all these splinters erupted to do the work that Harmstrong started?
I ran across a site for UCG singles. A more dismal and discouraging place would be hard to find. Articles on enduring - one written by a woman that was single for 50 years, now married to an older man and has a hypenated last name. I'll bet she had to get permission for that hyphen. (I'll also bet that Sue Blumel-Berg has a bit of satisfaction from being an elders wife and dealing with people that looked down their long noses at her while she was single).
A couple of articles on how life can be hell by dating and marrying outside the church. Recommended reading lists for singles that start with "King James Bible". Singles activities that include the ubiquitous Singles Bible Study. If people should get to know each other they need to be engaged in some sort of activity. Movies and bible studies are useless towards that end. Articles on how to get a mate by works (self improvement, bible study, prayer, patience, etc.) Any of you married people here really believe that your spouse married you because of your works? Is not love that leads people to marry truly grace as best as the flesh can live it?
And BTW, the idea that these COG's exist to "do the work" is a lie. The doing of "the work" is nothing more than a smokescreen for the existence of each little splinter. If the "work" was so important, why don't these scruffy little COGs unite so that they can pool all their resources and really do a work? Selfish David Hulme set the tone when he bolted - it was more important to do things his way than to stay "united". Meredth sank Global and started Living when other ministers actually used the bylaws to bag him. More important for Rod to be in charge than to be one group.
Now ministers are leaving Rod because he doesn't have a strong enough strain of Harmstrongism - or maybe they see that THEY are not the annointed successor to Lord Merrydeth and see Living coming apart in the near future.
Then there's Flurry in Oklahoma with his collection of Armstrong lucky charms.
The push to distinguish oneself has reached absurdity. Flurry is "that prophet". Weinland is one of the two witnesses. We have pastors general by the bucketful, along with some presiding evangelists - yet everyone of these fearless leaders is afraid to break the Harmstrong mold. Elisha didn't introduce himself as the best follower of Elijah, he let the works and miracles he did speak for themselves. Yet these would be Elisha's have no credibility or authority except they claim it as a direct baton in the hand from old Herb himself.
Even WCG after a promising start has calcified itself into a Harmstrong church with Protestant doctrines. We're evangelical, they claim, we live by grace, they claim - yet how the church is run is none of your business. (Thank you for not asking). Flagship publication Plain Truth magazine outsourced to Greg Albrecht and pretty much irrelevant today. What evangelical work is WCG doing? Lots of seminars, lots of "retreats" - but where is the outward directed evengelism? I couldn't find anything like that.
I believe that I've seen more real growth in people here on JLF than in any of the COG's - due primarily to being open about learning and living the truth than being hidebound to some idea of hierarchy or authority of some fearless leader. Jesus said that the Comforter would lead us into all truth - but that requires that we live by faith, not by sight, nor by men.
What a shabby, grubby little bunch of self serving, self preserving organizations the COG's have become. They've morphed into little groups that preserve the status quo so that they and their members can be comforted every saturday that they are continuing on with some great work. Patrick O'Brian wrote several books on life aboard English naval vessels. Several times he mentions that the sailors looked forward to something because they were used to it, and they liked what they were used to.
It's a fitting description of these miserable little COGs.

---KMS comments on the sorry state of Armstrongist splinters from Mark Tabladillo's Jesus Loves Fellowship message board

Wise Words from FYI Again

2007-03-13T09:20:00.000-07:00

Quote:
I find myself wondering if we will soon see big numbers of people either leaving the ACOGs or going independent.

Many of these groups are in the process of imploding. LCG in particular is vulnerable because it's an absolute monarchy with Rod Meredith in complete control just as HWA was. He is old and in poor health and when he dies or becomes incapacitated the whole thing is going to shatter. It may happen sooner. With LCG in the process of squandering big bucks on a doomed "Living University" - while at the same time they're losing members hand over foot to fundamentalist groups like RCG and PCG - they are headed for a train wreck.I put UCG's proposed move in a similar category. They aren't losing members the way LCG is - in fact some LCG members are moving to UCG. But they're still looking at a big expense. This move is risky for them, and there's little (if any) benefit to it. At least LCG's move to Charlotte, NC a few years ago made sense financially - it was a much cheaper area to operate from than San Diego.Then we have our favorite 21st Century Apostle, Dave Pack planning to build a shiny new HQ - only 1 year after completion of the "upfit" (as he called it when requesting "special offerings" to pay for it) of their existing (and *very* nice) HQ facilities. He's already squeezed his tiny flock dry and now he's going to do it again. I feel really bad for my friends in that gulag. It reminds me of tiny, impoverished nations who get saddled with some nutjob dictator who squanders what little resources they have to build grand monuments to himself.I see a major crisis ahead for most of the ACOG's. And as you say, many will either leave them altogether or go independent.Once the calls for "Special Offerings" start coming in, people will remember HWA and his golden albatross "House for God" - and they will bail out, leaving these unconscionable ba$tards stewing in their own juices. I'd say Dave Pack better get on the stick training those Two Nitwitses before the jig is up.

FYI Again gives his two cents on the future of the Church of God splinters regarding the United Church of God's proposed headquarter move from Cinncinati, Ohio to Dallas, Texas on the WCG Alumni message board

Oh, I couldn't resist...

2007-03-12T23:01:00.000-07:00

I told you! Can't get enough of Bill Maher. I am glad he takes viciously on more religious stupidity and those who would fanatically take us back to the Dark Ages in a second. He chides whom I call a "religious rightie" who wants to ban a vaccine that can help cut (and even prevent) the risk of cervical cancer because that would encourage promiscuity (only in this person's angry narrow minded hyperactive imagination). Bill go get 'em!!!

Bill Maher believes Mormonism is bad for you!

2007-03-12T22:08:00.000-07:00

I can NEVER get enough of Bill Maher! I just seen on him on Larry King tonight but I thought having one hour of this man is not enough! Here is his take on Mormonism on his show Real Time on HBO (I live in Canada and I can ONLY see it through Youtube.com). Straight and to the point, always true to his style!

Armstrongists are not of the hook, neither are the religious right!

2007-03-11T21:59:00.000-07:00

While Gavin Rumney, Gary Scott and to some extent myself keep watch on the fanaticism and cultism of the Armstrongite Churches of God, here is a blog that keeps watch on the excesses and fanaticism of the religious right. Read and enjoy at http://www.evangelicalright.com/ .

Good article on theonomic religions

2007-03-10T09:14:00.000-08:00

Shalom Tai, author of Religions of Theonomy, I ask, "Where are you!!!" It has been over five years your article appeared on the internet, now it has disappeared. Thank goodness you do allow the article to be copied, provided that all contents are still in tact. I will copy this article on this blog and it remains forever!!! May I remind ALL, that not ALL the contents of this article totally represents the views of Post WCG Life and Theology!

RELIGIONS OF THEONOMY

As much as I dislike Christianity, with its condemning the majority of human beings to eternal torture after death because of thinking "incorrectly", and its pompous, prideful feeling of righteousness because of trusting in faith and not in works, nevertheless, given a choice between Christianity on the one hand or Judaism or Islam on the other, I would choose Christianity any day. The Christian religion talks of men as flock of sheep, sinners needing salvation, and other condescending terms, but at least it does not treat men completely like little children, that is, Christianity does not tell people the proper way of urinating, for instance. Judaism and Islam do; they are theonomic religions, with a fixed set of rules for the believers in every aspect of their lives, from shoelace to king's throne. Whereas Christianity theonomy is seen as a deviation from the mainstream, in Judaism and Islam the "divine" code of law forms the core of the religion. Ex-Christians regard their past lives a being "Robots for Jesus", but this is nothing in comparison to the real robotism to which one is driven in Judaism and Islam.

Totalitarian Regulation

I, during the two years of being a fundamentalist Orthodox Jew, kept meticulously the laws of the Halakha (הלכה , the Jewish code of law). The regulation of the life of the believer by Jewish and and Islamic law is total, all encompassing. Here are a few activities ordered for every Orthodox Jew upon waking up in the morning:

Upon waking up, the first thought of the pious Jew must be: shiviti HaShem lenegdi tamid, meaning "I have framed the Lord [as] facing me always". He must acknowledge that God is always watching him, and he must behave accordingly. He must not behave in an indecent manner, for the King of Kings of Kings is watching what he does; as he would not behave indecently before a king of flesh and blood, so much more will he be wary before the Sovereign of the World.
Sleep is one sixtieth of death; in sleep, the soul goes heavenward to give account of the deeds of the past day before God, and if God wishes then he may keep the soul there. It is by God's mercy that the soul has returned to the body after sleep, thus enabling the person to wake up. The Jew who has just woken up must first say, before doing anything else: Modeh ani l'fanekha, Melekh hai v'kayam, sh'hehezarta bi nishmati b'hemla, rabba emunatekha, meaning "I thank before thee, living and existing King, that thou hast returned my soul into me in mercy; thy faithfulness is plentiful'.
He must then wash his hands: he will take vessel for washing hands, fill it with water, hold by the left hand and pour water on the right hand , then pass the vessel to the right hand pour water on the left hand, and repeat it two more times, so that each hand gets three pourings of water alternately. Then and only then is the spirit of impurity which had accumulated during sleep banished.

Those are just the opening activities of the day, of every day. After a few weeks of waking up every day, they become ingrained, mechanical, as do the prayers, which are prayed three times a day out of a book of prayer. There is also emphasis on sexual purity, meaning not only the avoidance of sexual licence, but even the natural and inescapable urge of the male to masturbate. A few examples:

The pious male Jew must never spill a drop of semen in vain. Ejaculation of semen is to be done only into a female Jew for purposes of reproduction, and only when she is twelve days after her menstruation period (five days of bleeding plus seven "days of cleanliness" for safety).
When he urinates, the male Jew must never hold his member in his hand, for that may lead to a state of hardening.
The male Jew must sleep on his side, never on his back or torso, so that he may not reach a state of hardening.
If he walks in the open and sees a male animal copulating with a female animal, he must turn his eyes away immediately, so as not to be tempted to do so the same in his own beastly desires.

Obviously such repression of natural sexual desire makes the male human animals very irritable and violent. Such is also the case in the Islamic world, where the females are covered from head to foot to avoid temptation (but the religious leaders, as in all religions, view porno films in secret). However, those are petty matters, although the pious may think they are destroying the world if they neglect them; more serious are the social laws:

A Jew who publicly desecrates the Sabbath is to be stoned to death.
A Jew must not marry a non-Jew
A Kohen (priest)must not marry a divorced woman.
A bastard cannot marry a Jew until the passage of ten generations from his or her line.

Such laws divide the Jewish society between secular (non-observant) and religious Jews. The two groups in Israel are almost as two nations, who do not each by each other or marry between each other. And of course there are the political laws, of appointing kings and going to war, which in the days of the Diaspora were officially neutralized by saying they were inapplicable because there is no kingdom, but today, with the great Messianic anticipation, some religious Jews feel compelled to put them in practice,

Judaism, like its overgrown derivative Islam, is inimical of the separation of religion and politics. When onlookers speak about "Jews politicizing the Sabbath" or "Muslims politicizing the Hajj", they imply that there had been a Sabbath or Hajj free of politics and then the religionists manipulated them political purposes. Not so; there has never been a separation of religion and politics in either Judaism or Islam, for those two religions do not believe in a two separate realms for God and for Caesar. The believe is to sanctify the name of God in every facet of his life, and to say that the religion is only for the synagogue or mosque and not for the throne or battlefield is to make light of it,it is like saying to God, "push off from our ordinary life". In Judaism and Islam the physical world is not a fallen, hated creation to be shunned' but it must be used according to the will of God, other wise one leads a life of idolatry. For Orthodox Jews, using computers to learn about ancient Chinese art is a waste of time for the which the waster will account before God, whereas using computers to scan Torah scrolls against scribal error is the true purpose for having such inventions in the world. In Islam too the pious Muslim should beware never to bring his own desires in preference to the will of Allah, for that is shirk, ascribing partners to Allah. Truly Judaism and Islam are the religions of Gott uber alles --nothing is worthwhile unless it is for the service of God.

Great Danger of Theononmy

From this short survey, one can see the great danger which the theonomic religions pose to the free world. Separation between religion and politics cannot be achieved with such all-encompassing ways of life. Secularism in Islam has been the target of constant opposition by clerics who call it it "ruling by other than what Allah has revealed", that is, by man-made laws instead of Allah's laws. the trouble with pious Jews and Muslims (and to a lesser extent with pious Christians as well) is that they take their religions too seriously, they see them as relevant real-world solutions and merely lifestyles for making people feel better. They fail to perceive that the laws of the Bible and Qur'an are just as man-made as the secular, democratic laws. Even in Turkey, where secularism has been officially decreed,the persistence of personal theonomy, such as praying the mosque five times a day, keep the flame of political aggression alive. the Islamic states of the Middle East blame secularism for their troubles, they see it as Western conspiracy. Muslim clerics say Allah has forsaken the Muslims for deserting the true faith, and only by returning to absolute religious observance will all the problems of the Islamic world be solved. This is nonsense, of course. First, Iran did in 1979 a massive return to religious rule and observance, yet things got only worse there; second, supernaturalist, divinely-ordained explanations, which link between the causes far removed from effects, are all false, irrelevant to the totally materialistic cosmos in which we are sustained. Even the clerics know that the starving cannot be saved from death by reading the Qur'an, but only eating.

The colonial period of the West may be partly to blame for the distressing situation in the Islamic world toady; but even if it were totally to blame, it is past. The Islamic world still speaks as if Western imperialism is in full activity. But it is not a plausible explanation now, because Islamic states are sovereign. Let it be said, in due time, illi faat maat ("that which is past is dead', or "let bygones be bygones", spoken in Arabic), and concentrate on what is troubling the Islamic world in our present time. Thenonomy has almost everything to do with it, I think. the notion that observance of Allah's law has anything to do with the real world, the idea that Allah is in control of the whole creation, is causing people to trust in fairy-tale solutions instead of curing woes on a cold, calculated materialistic basis. In other words, it is time to kill Allah. I discuss in my next article.

Editor's note, isn't some of this is all too familiar in Armstrongism??? I will say here with a theonomic religion like Armstrongism, isn't it is time to kill it's angry, demanding, psychopathic, vindictive and hateful god (and yes, god with a small "g" because I have nothing but contempt for that kind of a god)???

..and also tithing pays off for Toronto-based Pentecostals

2007-03-04T21:42:00.000-08:00

Read 'em and weep, courtesy of today's edition of the Toronto Star newspaper at http://www.thestar.com/News/article/187986 . Now I know why ex-XCGers can get a little emotional on the issue about tithing one's personal income. Without financial accountability, you just do NOT know where money for the church is properly (if ever) diverted.

Struggle against cults continues...

2007-03-02T22:29:00.000-08:00

Even in Hamilton, Ontario as the Dominion Christian Centre cult rears its ugly, evil and spiritually abusive head. Read all about it and watch CTV's W5 at http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061027/wfive_pied_piper_061027/20061117?hub=WFive&pr=showAll . We at Post WCG Life and Theology stand by the ex-members of this mad cult and support their cause against the fanatical leader of DCC, Peter Rigo.

Wise words from an Armstrongist Refusnik (FYI Again)!!!

2007-03-02T21:15:00.000-08:00

Not all COG's are alike.There's no question that the cult oriented COG's - the HWA era WCG, Gerald Flurry's PCG and David Pack's RCG being the more obvious examples - have (and continue to) cause psychological damage to most if not all of those who support them. It's just a matter of degree - some are more damaged than others. These certainly can and should be held accountable for the inevitable results of their abusive, controlling policies.But not all COG's are like this. Some have largely ejected the cult mentality. Some are in the process of doing so. They all continue to have problems of one sort or another as the legacies of Armstrong's personality cult, abusive government, and speculative prophetic interpretations continue to work their poison.Many of the WCG spin off groups are changing, just as the WCG itself is changing - although not necessarily in the same ways. Case in point: it might surprise you to hear that many stalwart, long time members of groups like UCG and LCG are increasingly accusing those organizations of liberalizing and watering down doctrine. These groups are divided and in turmoil. Older, Armstrongist oriented members are departing in droves to join with the more "fundamentalist" groups like RCG and PCG.And you know what? These older members are right. They *are* "liberalizing" and "watering down" doctrine. They deny it of course - as the Tkach's did. And they continue to maintain strict control, which is a danger in itself even if their motives truly are benign.Then there are the non-Armstrong COG's. What are these? Simply, they are the ones that never were tainted by Armstrong's peculiar brand of COGism. Primarily Church of God Seventh Day (COG7) and its many derivatives. These are the COG's where Armstrong learned basic COG doctrine, which he added to and abused to further his own ambitions and greed. To be sure, some of these groups *have* created a cult mentality - it's a common problem in small Churches of any sort whenever you have naturally controlling and/or ambitious men seeking a following. But for the most part these groups have stayed free of the kind of cultism that Armstrong fostered.People are going to believe what they are going to believe. Armstrong's teachings, his policies, his personality cult, and his prophetic interpretations had a powerful and lasting effect on a lot of people. Armstrong also taught basic COG doctrine which he learned from COG7 - some of which he taught accurately (ie biblically) and effectively.Why do you suppose so many believed Armstrong? Because they *REALLY DID* see in their bibles that much of what he was saying was true. He was very convincing. Of course the best way to teach lies is to liberally mix them with truth.How many of Armstrong's doctrines do you still cling to? Everyone's different of course, but I think even the most die hard anti Armstrongists probably still - whether they are willing to admit it or not - cling to at least some of the doctrines they learned through him and his Church.Of course, those who are firmly committed to Armstrongism have several choices available to them. At present, I'd estimate that David Pack's "Restored" Church of God (RCG) is the closest in terms of pure, undiluted, full strength Armstrongism. Like Armstrong, David Pack claims to be an Apostle. He also lays claim to several "titles" that Armstrong himself once claimed to hold - "Messenger to Israel" and "Watchman" to a specific "era" of "the Church". RCG is a popular destination for the dedicated Armstrongites, and continues to spread the same poison.But there are plenty of alternatives for those who are less than fully committed to Armstrongism, but who still believe many of the doctrines they once learned. These doctrines are not evil simply because Armstrong taught them. For those who believe them, there are Churches were they can be relatively free of the mind controlling cult mentality and abuse. Such people can find others of like mind, with whom they may have profitable fellowship - which some people need very badly.The worst thing someone like this can do is to remain alone with no one to talk to for a long period of time. I think a lot of people make this mistake and it's terribly unhealthy - they'd be better off back in the cult than stewing in their own confusion and uncertainty. That I think is the primary mistake that this man made. He clearly still maintained some - perhaps most - of his former belief system. Yet outside his own family he had nobody to share his faith with. That can be a mighty lonely place to be. I know. I've been there.Of course the reverse can also be true. If someone is staying in a Church they no longer trust or believe in simply because they have friends there, that too is a mistake and is unhealthy. If you can't have some confidence in a Church, it's time to hit the road Jack and don't go back. I know this too. Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt, ain't going back.Broadly speaking, I define Armstrongism as:1) the personality cult (HWA = Elijah, God's Apostle, etc),2) the abusive, controlling "Government of God", and3) the teaching of highly speculative prophetic interpretation as gospel truth.I make a distinction between Armstrongism and basic COG doctrine - most of which pre-dated Armstrong and which he himself learned from COG7. He of course tried to cover that up by calling it "Dead Sardis" and painting a falsified picture of it in his autobiography, but the fact remains that the core of his doctrine was not unique to him. He learned it from an existing group. That group still exists. And it never had anything to do with Armstrongism, in spite of the many similarities in teaching (doctrine) that can still be found.Armstrongism itself is dying. It's being kept on life support by a small handful of nutburgers, but there's no question that its core constituency is aging and rapidly dying off. There are very few *new* converts.Everyone's journey is different - and God works differently with different people. As Stingerski often says, your mileage may vary. To those who give up most if not all vestiges of COG doctrine, they have plenty of choices - many have become atheists, many have returned to more mainstream denominations and all points in between. There are plenty of potential destinations.But for those (like me) who still believe *some* of the COG doctrines - and there are a lot of us - there are COG groups which can serve the purpose of providing comfort and fellowship. And some of them don't require you to be a "regular" member - you can visit when you feel a need to.I am not currently a "regular" of *ANY* particular COG group. I have been in this state for quite some time now and I'm perfectly happy to be so. I have friends in a number of different groups - as well as a good many friends who are not and never have been part of any COG. When I feel a need for some COG style fellowship, I'm glad I have that alternative available.Admittedly the COG's are difficult waters to navigate. There are narrows and icebergs, storms and pirates aplenty to watch out for. But for those who need them, I'm glad that some are still around. Perhaps if this man who murdered his family had had someone with similar beliefs to talk to, he wouldn't have done what he did.

---FYI Again in WCG Alumni message board making a bold declaration that there is an emerging difference between Armstrongism and the Churches of God that is becoming a reality and needs to be paid serious attention to!

Intelligent quote of the day from Gavin

2007-03-01T22:48:00.000-08:00

...[T]here are some fine people in various parts of COGdom working hard to make their faith positive and relevant...I have a lot of time for Pam Dewey and some of the more balanced independents...[H]owever, that these folk are still a minority. Independent thinkers are quite rare, and people who have bothered to get off their chuffs and acquire some real knowledge about the Bible and Christian history (as opposed to cheap fundamentalist apologetics) are almost non-existent among us. Like it or not there are a lot of spiritual Nazis out there, raking in the tithes and feeding off the flock. They - not people who comment on this blog - make it difficult for the genuine, non-abusive strands of the Church of God.

Ambassador Watch bloggist Gavin Rumney giving his intelligent two cents (as usual) about the influence of the independent Churches of God. I call them "Armstrongist Refusniks" (it's actually a label they should wear with extreme pride). I hope to write an article about them in Gary Scott's XCG in the near future.

Doesn't this seem all too familiar???

2007-02-12T20:19:00.000-08:00

What I think is that they are so easily influenced, that they can so easily think up excuses for the plainly inexcusable, and that they are so adept at maneuvers and manipulation that many would be able to think their way around whatever is said to them.For example, if I told them (as I could of my old church organization), "Your church is based upon the biblical understandings of uneducated persons," they would answer, "Thank God, He can use the base things, the rejected persons, the unwise to do His work, while the educated shake their heads in wonder, having no personal knowledge or understanding."If I told them (as I could of my old church organization), "Many in your church have abused others in the name of God," they would answer, "Yes, the church is full of humans, and humans make mistakes."If I told them (as I could of my old church organization), "Two pastors I had in your church touched me inappropriately," they would answer, "That is not believeable, because if it had happened, you would have said something when it happened, but you didn't."If I told them (as I could of my old church organization), "I was told in your church that if I left your church, I and my family would fail spiritually, personally, and financially, but in fact, we are better off now than we were while in your church," they would answer, "It's not over yet. God is not mocked. Whatsoever you sow, that will you reap."If I told them (as I could of my old church organization), "I had a pastor who stood in the pulpit and bragged about his dirty business dealings, and we lost 95% of the youth grooup because of that and because of his treatment of the youth pastor, who tried to explain," they would answer, "Touch not mine annointed. Even if he did, he was placed in that position by God, and you should have submitted to him."Seriously, I think that many (but certainly not all!) in these organizations have

*completely calloused consciences
*absolute narcissism
*complete lack of empathy which they have learned to fake in order to manage socially

---A poster from ex-Pentecostal Forums discussing the mechanics of spiritual abuse in certain charismatic-Pentecostal groups

A comparison and contrast of a COG7 and ACOG church worship

2007-02-11T22:51:00.000-08:00

Bloggist's note:

I can remember in my talks to Church of God (Seventh Day) Confrence President Whaid Rose in his visit to Toronto in the spring of 2000, he concluded that worship in the historic Worldwide Church of God was stoic. WCG National Director Gary Moore agreed with that assesment probably a couple years back in his visit to the Toronto West church.

---Felix Taylor, Jr. Post WCG Life and Theology

"Of the 114 special songs by Dwight Armstrong appearing in the 1974 Hymnal, how many do you think contain the name Christ or Jesus? Do you think most of them, say, about 100? Surely at least half, say 57? Would you be surprised to learn that of all 114 songs, not one contains the name of our Savior."This is 180 degrees from the modern Church of God Seventh Day in some areas where the local CoG7 has its own band and play quite a lot of music in its "Praise Worship" Services. The songs are modern and Evangelical. The words are projected on a large screen that mostly everyone can read. The songs praise Jesus quite a lot as Savior -- by name -- as the CoG7 views themselves as the Bride of Christ honoring her Husband."

Apparently the differences are great

The congregation is warm and non judgmental. People come dressed informally, although you can wear a suit if you wish. There is no pressure. The people are very caring. The minister is not the Sabbath Gestapo in the CoG7. There are a lot more young children and there are many younger families with the parents in their 20s and 30s. Quite a few people never attended church anywhere else before.There are, amazingly enough, altar calls. Tithes and offerings, though not demanded are collected as part of the praise service.Instead of a duty or burden, the Sabbath is considered a gift wherein everyone can leave the cares of the past week behind and concentrate on praising Jesus and worshiping God the Father. There is much more emotional content to the extent that the xcgs seem sterile by comparison.There is even an optional Fall Festival kept at the traditional time.The CoG7 is community based and the ministers of the CoG7 have a rapport with the Sunday keeping Protestant ministers and talk with them frequently. The CoG7 ministers have actual training in credentialed prominent Bible Colleges. One minister did his thesis on William Miller and has family ties to Dugger and Dodd. Some have taken extensive training in the Dead Sea Scrolls.While it may seem odd, with the modern evangelical music, the CoG7 believes in keeping the Commandments, clean and unclean meats but consider themselves New Covenant, devoid of legalism. The idea is to love God and keep the Commandments because they are a gift and because they want to show love to Jesus, not out of duty.The Bible Advocate is one of the most respected religious publications with around 150 years of history. Let us see any other xcg last that long and have a stable congregation of 10,000 strong a century from now.Indeed, the CoG7 from which Herbert Armstrong rebelled because they didn't accept British Israelism from him, is quite a world apart from the xcgs, musically and otherwise.

---excerpts from comments Gavin Rumney's blog discussing the worship styles in the historic WCG

Intelligent Quote of the Day: XCG ministers and Real Jobs

2007-02-11T22:38:00.000-08:00

It takes eight long years of study to become a Catholic priest. Almost as long as to become an M.D. And even after all that intense training we still see a few quacks and pedophiles slip thru the process.My question for people like Mark Armstrong is, just what kind of training does he have? Four years at the unaccredited Embarrassing College? Is that it!? And he is now fit to council with people having personal problems or dispense advice from the pulpit?Excuse me, but if a psychologist tried this with no more training than the Armstrongs of the world have, the authorities would close his practice and put him in jail for fraud. It's just too bad that so-called "ministers" aren't held equally accountable. People might as well go to their local palm reader for advice or call Madame Cleo as they would these ACOGs. And it's a lot cheaper too!

---The controversial WCG Alumni message board member "Stingerski'' on XCG minister's poor credentials compared to other professions that demand higher standards and training.

WCG history made!

2007-02-04T20:22:00.000-08:00

Despite my criticisms of both the historical and evangelical Worldwide Church of God, I will say that it has come a long way baby! You gotta give credit to what was a woman-hating organization (and I really believe the historic WCG and it's Armstrongist split-offs hate with a passion, the female sex, especially when the female sex becomes an adult---she is evil, the beauty of her body is especially wicked, women according to Armstrongism is a utility, all aesethetic aspects of a woman should never come into mind!) to an organization that respects women as an equal to a man in the eyes of God. The evangelical WCG went so far of doing a study paper on the issue of ordaining women to the ministry and has very recently ordained a woman into the ministry. The first woman to be ordained in the WCG to ministry is Debby Bailey of Kentucky. Where do I stand on this? I have taken a "moderate complementary" position on this issue. In other words, I have no hang-ups on women doing openening and closing prayer, even doing the occassional sermons and other active involements in the church but I was reluctant to have a woman as a "senior pastor" of a congregation or a "denominational leader" (whether WCG, Lutheran, Baptist, whatever). I believe God had a role for the men in the particular positions. Some friends from the place I attend services Good News Fellowship have contested my "moderate complementarianism" saying, "If you (Felix) can allow a woman to preach and teach, how come you cannot give the woman the recognition by ordaining them." Good question and I do not know all the answers. This is what I know, that the church, which is the invisible body of Christ, are a kingdom of priests---or in other words a preisthood of believers. We, the church are all ministers. When we believe the gospel, respond to it, we are empowered for ministry. It is not a option which you pick and choose what you eat from a menu, it is obligatory. God has created in us special abilities and talents, we should use them to our potential to glorify him. It doesn't matter what race, sex, ability or disability---believers are called to ministry regardless. I guess the issue is about "ordained ministry" is it the same as anyother ministry in the Christian church ---or something different. Obviously, the ultra-conservative splinters will take offence at the recent ordination believing that the WCG is truly apostate and going to The Lake of Fire. Some who have left WCG/XCG are quite happy about this, some have serious reservations and there are some who have left Armstrongism but who are very conservative Protestants believe that the WCG has committed heresy even if it is a minor heresy (which they mean it is non-salvational) it is harmful in some way. Anyway, I believe the Worldwide Church of God should have focused on more practical and pressing issues of dealing with accountability and dismantling the imperial power of pastor general, which if I had my way the office of the Pastor General would have resembled the office of the Archbishop of Canterburry as opposed to the Pope. If it is truly God's will and purpose for Mrs. Bailey to be in "ordained" ministry, I wish her well in her new office but my sympathies extend for her because the evangelical WCG is still an organization with sharks.

Read all about Mrs. Debby Bailey and her ordaination here at http://www.wcg.org/weekly/default.htm

Not-so-nice words from Ronald Kelly

2007-02-02T20:04:00.000-08:00

"YOUR JOB IS NOT TO THINK!!!"

---Ronald Kelly, 1974

In my stay in the WCG, I really had a very "high" opinion of WCG Evangelist Ronald D. Kelly. I even admired his "Johnny Appleseed" beard which in the late 1980's he finally disposed of. I first heard him speak at the Feast of Tabernacles at Niagara in 1983 when I was 13 and met him personally when he visited my hometown of Toronto in 1987. Little I knew Ronald Kelly, had a dark side of the force lurking in him. Worldwide Church of God Almuni message board participant PasedenaGuy 10 presents a clip from an former WCG member's book about Ronald Kelly's tactics during the infamous (or famous---take your pick!) rebellion back in 1974.

---Felix Taylor, Post WCG Life and Theology

Laschek tells the story of the upheavals in the WCG during the 1974 ‘crisis’ where over 2,000 members left because of all the lies and deceit going on by the ministry.

On February 25 was the “Monday Massacre.” Garner Ted Armstrong had flown in from headquarters in Pasadena to end confusion and marshal the forces of righteousness. On the twenty-third he had delivered a blistering sermon at Sabbath services, inflaming the faithful with fresh distrust and, in some cases, hatred for the dissidents. IT was an inspired performance by a talented orator. At the end, several hundred people spontaneously leaped to their feet, cheering and waving. I had a vision of Nuremberg, 1935, and was actually frightened. I counted six of us who didn’t cheer.On the twenty-fifth, Garner Ted convened a minister’s conference at AC, and, after a forty-minute opening prayer, which saw him break into sobs, he harangued and intimidated the forty or so assembled church leaders for seven hours. Several entered the meeting with misgivings about the organization, but by the times it was over, only four still stood their ground, resisting the demand for total loyalty. They were fired from the ministry and disfellowshipped.The next day it was the student body’s turn to be purified. Kelly and an associate delivered wild-eyed diatribes calling on us to “purge out those who are not wiling to change!” Everyone knew who he meant; but of course it was the dissidents who had actually changed.) We were told there was a “morass of rebellion” and that the situation was “insane.” The Devil was attempting to divide and conquer God’s church, and the rebels were eon his side, partaking of evil. To cap it off, we were reminded, “there are things we shouldn’t even think; let alone say.”Next day the student body was assembled, and Kelly announced that twenty students had been fired from their campus jobs because they had contact with disfellowshipped persons. The kicker was that he wouldn’t release the names of those who were “terminated.” You had to guess if you were among the causalities, and, therefore, further incriminate yourself by asking for official confirmation.The next day Kelly kicked my friend Pam out of AC. She had been on the termination list and had gone to Kelly’s office to discuss her firing. She wondered why her job had been affected by a visit to a former member. Kelly replied that the salaries were paid via the donations of church members, so it was a betrayal of the brethren to use their money to pay dissidents. It would have been an appropriate moment to mention how the brethren’s money had been used top buy planes, limos, jewelry, and other extravagances for the WCG hierarchy, but Pam merely said, “I don’t think going to see a former minister should have anything to do with my job.”“Your job isn’t to think, “ Kelly replied irritably. “You aren’t paid to think.”“Oh, that’s right,” Pam countered, “Christians aren’t supposed to think.”Kelly began to shout. He yelled, “That’s enough!” He didn’t want to hear any more. He told Pam she was expelled from AC, and, right on the spot, he instructed his secretary to file the necessary papers. As Pam left his office, he slammed the door behind her.The “heretical underground” had grown cynical as the conflict in the WCG unfolded and we howled with mischievous delight when we discovered that Kelly had a bidet installed in the bathroom of his house. Some began to refer to him as “Clean Ass Kelly,” and mused that since so many true believers were “brownnosers,” Kelly’s posterior must be scrupulously maintained in a pristine condition.

While you are at it, check out Norman Shoaf's new book too!

2007-01-31T20:57:00.000-08:00

A former writer for WCG publications including the Plain Truth, Norm Shoaf has also a post WCG experience. It has been a rocky one with the loss of his wife and to raise his kids alone but thankfully he is now writing for a southern California newspaper as "city editor". He also has a book out called "Random Epiphanies" a book about his various thoughts on faith. You can read the summary, review and you can purchase the book at http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=31966 .

Check out Grant Spong's website

2007-01-31T19:59:00.000-08:00

What do I make of Grant Spong, former WCG minister? When I was in Niagara Falls, New York during the Feast of Tabernacles in 1994, me and a friend a got a kick out of him during his feast sermon, "10 Ways to Receive Your Reward" (I even still have the tape!). A good speaker, funny, humourous, even sarcastic (but hey he's an Aussie, they are supposed to be blunt and crass, so suck it in and take it!). My cyber-experience with Grant in the 2000's has been a very interesting one full and complete range of emotions and experience on any given topic we have discussed (oh yes, at times in a very intense manner let's say). Like myself, Grant's post-WCG experience has been also been a rugged journey so to speak but he will agree with me that this exile out of the WCG is completely worth it and wouldn't trade it in for anything in the world. I just found out that he has a website called IGS Ministries (standing for both his full name Ian Grant Spong and In God's Service) at http://www.igspong.com/ where he has 4 e-books: Christianity without the Crap (good Aussie title and this looks like a good one as I am glancing it, go here at http://www.igspong.com/Christianity_without_the_Crap.pdf for the PDF version), Preach (this one also looks good if you are interested in public speaking), House Churches Unlimited and a unique one called Good Manners for Australian Politicians (I guess the principle can apply to Canadian ones too!). I hope you like and enjoy from his e-books. May he have more stuff in the future.

FYI AGAIN DOES ANOTHER INTELLIGENT QUOTE OF THE DAY!

2007-01-31T07:39:00.000-08:00

Of all the contradictions in WCG the biggest was their take on "free moral agency" vs. their tendency to produce automatons. HWA frequently harped on how God created mankind to be "free moral agents", and that we must have free will in order to "develop Godly character". And yet here was "God's College" churning out robots... BY DESIGN!! And whenever one of the robots started thinking for itself it was drop kicked off the assembly line.

---FYI Again, making another point on Worldwide Church of God Alumni about HWA and his minions talking a cool game about "free moral agency", "freewill" while taking delight in human beings acting like automatons.

Another Intelligent Quote of the Day from Neotherm

2007-01-25T21:09:00.000-08:00

End time prophecy is a marketing vehicle for the COGs. It is a means of bringing more anxiety into the lives of people who are already anxiety inundated. The hope is that they will be frightened into joining a COG and becoming a part of the tithe base. Evangelicals are little better. (I am not an evangelical.) They look into such books as Revelation to find support for the agenda of the Republican Party. It is almost as if morality for them is not defined by the Bible but by Republican dogma.They harp on God's promise to Abraham to support the Iraq War. They cite that "those who bless you will be blessed and those who curse you will be cursed." At the same time they ignore the unrelenting warfare between the Arabs and the descendants of Israel. They conceal that fact that Biblical prophecy describes the Middle East as a seething cauldron right up to Armageddon. John Hagee, whom I have only watched a little on television, strongly supports the President's War in Iraq based on basis of the Abrahamic "blessing scripture" but says nothing about the rest. So the evangelicals proof-text support for the War in Iraq. If we wanted to bless Israel, it would make sense for us to use our 150,000 troops to secure Israel's borders. Instead, we are trying to turn Iraq into a democratic republic. History demonstrates from the Crusasdes onward, that Iraq will never become the 51st State of the Union.I was amazed to hear a kid from Wheaton College a few weeks back say on ABC Evening News that God's creation is something that we should respect and take care of. He knew this was an unpopular statement with evangelicals. Evangelicals believe in environmental policies that favor corporations because that is the Republican agenda. Somehow evangelicals can become almost witheringly angry over abortion (I am firmly against abortion), but have no problem with sending young men and women to their deaths in the Iraq War. Both involve expending human life for no reasonable purpose. Evangelicals adopt this paradoxical position not because it is Biblical but because it is a part of the Republican agenda. Throughout, I should have said neo-conservative Republicans because there are some centrist Replublicans that I respect.This is one reason why I am a mainstream Christian rather than an evangelical.

---More of Neotherm's criticisms (and rightly so) of evangelical Christians and their approach to prophecy and their faith in public policy isssues on Gavin Rumney's Ambassador Watch blog

Now here's some good preaching

2007-01-21T21:59:00.000-08:00

After watching the "dirt" below, here's something that will clean you. This night I was surfing the net and found something from Covenant Seminary, a theological seminary based in St.Louis, Missouri. They had a section of Ministry Resources at http://www.covenantseminary.edu/resource/ResultListDetail.asp?slType=Title&rPage=L where you can hear some of the sermons that were preached and I was delighted to hear two of them so far. They are:

Dealing With Our Inappropriate Conservatism Zack EswineGalatians 1-2 Download MP3 Audio

I Remember Yom Kippur Robert Vasholz Download MP3 Audio

I hope you will enjoy both messages, be inspired and uplifted as a result. Enjoy!

This is NOT the way to preach!!!

2007-01-18T21:24:00.000-08:00

Christian televangelists come in strange shapes and sizes and here is one of those you can add to the "Real Wacko" and proud of it. This stange man quotes Bible scriptures and at the same time cusses like a gang leader. I don't mind the odd cuss word to strike a stern rebuking point but this "toilet mouth" is just seeming to do it for show. On top that, there is no coherence and central point he's trying to say. This guy is NOT the late greate Gene Scott by any stretch of the imagination. The guys's haircut is bad, the studio and background is so cheap. I don't know much about this man. It has been rumoured (and I don't know for sure) that he committed suicide a couple of years ago which if true is very sad. I don't think you need to be a toilet mouth in order to communicate to inner city gangs. This is bad preaching at its worse and I want to do my best to have a clean blog but I will put this warning that viewer's discretion about this segment here only is strongly advised!

Intelligent quote of the day

2007-01-17T18:57:00.000-08:00

Religion alone isn't the problem

It's when religion and *power* mix that it becomes truly toxic. Note that I said power and not politics. Any time religion seeks to control people, whether it's for political purposes or simply to gain power and wealth (as HWA did) it becomes corrupted and disaster will surely follow.Religion of and by itself can be benign. But once it starts trying to force itself on others - for whatever reason - it becomes pure poison. Islam was *FOUNDED* on the principle of forced conversion, and as such it has been poison from the very start.Unfortunately, the nations of the west - because of their tradition of religious tolerance - have no defense against the kind of agitation the Muslims in their midst are doing. In order to survive, they will ultimately have no choice but to curtail the religious freedoms their societies have become accustomed to. In the final analysis, Islam will have to be outlawed in these countries because it will never change and it will never go quietly. A new "crusade" is brewing and there's not much anyone can do to stop it. Our societies have only 2 choices: stop Islam by any means necessary, or submit to forced conversion.Islam is not a religion. It is a political ideology, like Communism or Fascism.

---FYI of Worldwide Church of God Alumni message board discussing his views on twisted religion and the West's limited choices in fighting Islamofacism

Life After The WCG Proven!

2007-01-15T18:28:00.000-08:00

Remember being in the Worldwide Church of God being told if you leave that "bad things will happen to you". You will no longer be blessed, you are in the bonds of Satan, forfeited your salvation, blah,blah,blah! Again it is has been proven over and over again (may there be more examples to come when people have the good sense to leave what is left of the WCG and it's ever fragmenting splinters) that there is LIFE after the Worldwide Church of God and other off-shoots. George T. Geis was a minister in the Worldwide Church of God was ousted in the mid 1980's. The Ambasador Report by the late John Trechak (not Gavin's Ambassador Watch) explains:

At the end of 1984 there appeared on the shelves of Vroman's bookstore in Pasadena a new book of major interest to some in the WCG hierarchy. The Firm Bond (Linking Meaning and Mission in Business and Religion) by Robert L. Kuhn and George T. Geis, and published by Praeger, explores "the ways in which business could adopt the techniques and outlooks that enable some religious groups to obtain an unparalleled degree of commitment from their adherents." (Quotes are from their book and book jacket.)
The authors analyze the problem of commitment - both corporate and personal - and suggest ways in which commitment is either built or broken. To buttress their arguments they rely heavily on anecdotes. It was these anecdotes, apparently, that caused rumblings at WCG headquarters in Pasadena. For while the book nowhere mentions the WCG by name, both Kuhn and Geis have had a long relationship with the Armstrong organization, and many saw in their pseudonymous examples the WCG with all its corporate and human failings.
Within a few weeks of the book's appearance Geis was forced to resign from his Ambassador College position and the WCG ministry. It was the WCG's loss. Geis was one of the few Ambassador College faculty members possessing truly outstanding academic credentials.
Besides a B.A. in theology from Ambassador College, Geis received a B.S. in mathematics (summa cum laude) from Purdue University, a Ph.D. in educational psychology from the University of Southern California, and an M.B.A. from the Graduate School of Management at UCLA, where he is also a Postdoctoral Scholar. He is currently "Research Coordinator at the Center for Human Research Management, Institute of Industrial Relations, the University of California at Los Angeles."
Kuhn's credentials are equally impressive. Besides a B.A. in theology from Ambassador College, Kuhn holds a B.A. (Phi Beta Kappa) in human biology from Johns Hopkins University; a Ph.D. in neurophysiology from the Department of Anatomy and Brain Research Institute of the University of California at Los Angeles; and an M.S. (Sloan Fellow) in management from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology where he was also a research affiliate in psychology. He is the author of a number of books on management and currently holds positions with the University of Texas and New York University. He has been disassociated from the WCG and Ambassador College since the late seventies.
Over the years, the WCG and Ambassador College have been able to draw many men of intellect and talent. Unfortunately, the Armstrong organization has rarely been able to hold on to those same individuals. It would be difficult to find another organization with such a pronounced "brain drain" problem. Those running the Armstrong organization might do well to ponder the lessons found in The Firm Bond.

The brain drain continues right 'til this day in the 2000's even with the new evangelical Worldwide Church of God and it's recent cultic splinters. Where's Dr. Geis today? Well he's at UCLA Anderson School of Management as an Adjunct Professor. Here is the link at

http://www.anderson.ucla.edu/x1962.xml explaining this man's curriculum vitae. Still impressive, isn't it? For those in the XCG's who want to be free, do not let the threats and lies of leaving the totalitarian group conquer you. It is time to be victorous and make a bold move. There is LIFE after the Worldwide Church of God and/or it's splinters. This is one more case and many more to come!

This guy also needs a check up from the neck up

2007-01-13T17:13:00.000-08:00

...and a physical check-up from one sexy nurse! Hey he's a widower, he needs some kind of adult entertainment! That would probably calm him down and make a lot less sillier predictions. Wouldn't all of us former XCGers like that?! You bet! But we all know that's a fantasy and Gerald Flurry, like The Energizer Bunny will keep going and going, you know the idea. As all Armstrongite XCG preachers of doom and gloom is that they have silly minded predictions when the Democrats in the U.S. take over the White House or Congress, IT'S THE END OF THE AGE!!! When the Republicans in the U.S. take over the White House or Congress, "God is giving us more time to do The Work! So behave yourselves!!!" Latest of this mind control sheninagans (as pictured in the Phildelphia [S]trumpet, thanks Gavin for pointing this out) should tire some people. Maybe it has but others take this as gospel, suck it in and give it no thought. Here is a reality check: The Democrats that have been elected and recently sworn in Congress are CONSERVATIVE AND MODERATE DEMOCRATS! Yes, the liberal Democrats are in charged of Congressional Committees but believe you me, it would be a stupid thing for the liberal Democrats to automaticaly crack the whip to mold their conservative and moderate counterparts into their point of view. With the new Democratic elected Congress, things are a lot more complicated than Flurry imagines. British-American columnist Andrew Sullivan believes that this is a good thing for America because you have a check on power on the Bush administration. I know my fellow conservative Republican friends south of my border may disagree on that point but it is a better point than Fantasy Flurry's anyday.

First Idiot Awards of 2007 go to: David Ben-Ariel

2007-01-13T15:32:00.000-08:00

"Okay Felix! What is DBA bothering you about this time???" Really it is Pasedena Guy10 of WCG Alumni Message board discovered this crazy idea on DBA's blog. I could remember a then-WCG friend back in the '90's was imagining a Left-Behind-type movie with Arnold Schwarzenegger as the Beast. That was a fantasy, now David Ben Ariel's hoping that this is a reality! Read on for an explanation:

Nazis Laying Foundation for Return Through CA Governor

David Bent Ariel has went bonkers! As if Arnold is going to run to be president of the EU! Oh wait, he is a closet Nazi who will be leading the European Union with Germany at the helm as they come and take the U S captive and put us all in concentration camps! Well, all except for the chosen remnant who will be in Petra digging holes for MerryDeath and Flurry's sacred waste. What an idiot! Bent Ariel Blog

Quote:

Will Arnold Schwarzenegger, frustrated by failures to run for the highest office in the United States, return home to Europe and triumph in the elections as the "born leader" of the pan-European movement's party? Will the EU's strong man then vent his anger against the United States and wreak havoc on the world?When I called Governor Schwarzenegger's office the first time to inquire "Has Governor Schwarzenegger ever considered running for president of the European Union or would he consider it?" (Presently only possible when Austria has the EU presidency but the winds of change are blowing). The fellow said he was pretty sure he wouldn't. When I asked, "Is that a yes or a no," he said he hadn't heard him say anything about it. That's not what I asked. I wanted a concrete yes or no answer. Not a guess.He then put me through to Lee in the Press Office who graciously took note of my questions and said if she found out anything she'd give me a call. I called again to leave my email, rather than just my phone number. Still didn't hear anything after some time, so I just called and she said they had no comment.When pressed as to does that means Mr. Schwarzenegger doesn't plan to run for European office, or doesn't want to discuss it, for whatever reasons, she simply said "We don't have any comment for your book." When I said what should I say when I write about Arnold's refusal to answer a simple question, she said say the "Press office declines to comment." WHY?Nothing against Arnold Schwarzenegger personally, but my first thought and concern as an American born and raised here in our Promised Land, is why would we want a German (he was born in Austria, hence Germanic) in control of California on our strategic West Coast? Especially when, as Herbert W. Armstrong so correctly warned through the pages of The Plain Truth magazine and World Tomorrow broadcast (formerly headquartered in Pasadena, California), the Nazi movement only went underground and began to lay the foundation for their return. Germany's Fourth ReichNow that Herr Schwarzenegger is in control of California, he undoubtedly craves the presidency of the United States, especially since he's convinced he was "born to rule" and has more than an admiration for historical dictators, swaying millions. If he is unable to claim that coveted prize, would he, in fierce frustration, return to Europe and go after its reigns and ride the EU bull with the Bavarian pope's blessings?

Is it any wonder why the Governor will not respond to this Armstrongite worshipping idiot!

NOTE FROM FELIX:

IT IS MY BELIEF THAT IF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE RISE UP AND CHANGE THE U.S. CONSTITUTION TO LET THOSE WHO WERE FOREIGN BORN AMERICAN CITIZENS TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES! IN OTHER WORDS, IT IS THE BELIEF OF POST WCG LIFE AND THEOLOGY THAT GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA, THE HONOURABLE ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER IS THE AMERICAN MESSIAH OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY TO BATTLE THE NEO PHARISEES OF OUR TIME, THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT! MAY THAT GREAT DAY DRAW NEAR!!!

Another Intelligent Quote of the Day by Desertwench on Joe Jr.

2007-01-02T22:40:00.000-08:00

For the most part, I consider Dr. Tkach to be a well-educated, well-informed man of high intellect, and I think it is great that he carried on this email dialogue with you (....having had several email exchanges with him over the years, myself). I am wondering if maybe he already knew you from WCG HQ employment or elsewhere?
While your part of the email dialogue seems (to me) to be gracious and respectful, I am not at all surprised that Joe's responses had undertones of defensiveness. Let's face it, criticism in any form whatsover, just never sets well with MOST church pastors/overseers.....not just in WCG, but most other churches/denominations at least from what I've observed. And so, what happens for some church members (the first time or two they criticise the pastor's leadership or some aspect about the church and get an unfavorable reaction....) is that they quickly see the pastor as "unapproachable" and out of touch with reality. And, it's no wonder that so many church pastors/overseers today, have complained about how lonely and unappreciated they feel, to the point that many of them leave the ministry completely.
I too would challenge Dr. Tkach on his belief that "HWA died penniless." LOL, that's baloney! I also have good reason to believe that Dr. Tkach (just like his mother & so many others...) is also STILL (in 2007) among the "walking wounded" and operates much of the time from a subtle, passive-aggressive mindset.
And while I have many other opinions/perspectives on the "new" WCG's governance and its appointed (not elected) "pope"-style leadership and hand-picked board of elders, I still say that the most gracious, merciful thing Joe could have done (once he inherited his "papacy" position & began to dismantel Armstrongism & "old" WCG piece by piece, inch by inch....like a long, slow torture) was to either:
1) Step out on faith in his newly-found freedom in Christ, along with his buddies (Mike, Bernie, Greg & whoever else...), and plant a new denomination or church elsewhere.....leaving "old" WCG in-tact....and not try to "bully" or get people to conform to their agendas. Or:
2) Announce that WCG will close its doors on such & such a date, and provide WCGers with information on how to find a healthy church home elsewhere. THEN...(and this is very important & obviously impossible for WCG leaders to accomplish, given their past track record...) have the self-discipline and integrity to follow through with the plan by SAYING/DOING what they mean, and MEANING what they say (& do).
The main reason why I believe that WCG leadership can never truly "help" those it hurt -- and can never preach the fullness of the Gospel of Christ & Him crucified -- is because the Armstrongism baggage always gets in the way. WCG is so busy trying to justify its existance, trying to find a new purpose & place in the Christian community & trying to "stomp out" the demons of its sordid, abusive past that there just isn't much room "in the inn" for Christ. It seems that so much of the time (just like the "old" WCG), He must take a backseat to the denominational drama (the latest being their decision to ordain women into pastor/elder positions). And, just like "old" WCG, the denominational drama in "new" WCG is humanistic and detracts from the Gospel.
And finally, one of the key things I believe about Dr. Tkach is that he is just biding his time until he sees fit to take the "treasure" he has laid up for himself (as the CEO of WCG) to retire & break away not just from the WCG, but from organized religion, in general. He's in his mid-50's now and so, where else is he going to find gainful employment? I realize (as he has told me...) that he has received offers for positions in other churches/denominations that he has declined. And I don't blame him for that - he's got a cushy job right where he is, and besides, most people get more set in their ways as they get older and don't have much desire to start a new career in a different company, in their 50's. Anyway, I have good reason to believe that he is just going through the motions of his position and "playing church" like a good pastor-general should, while jetting all over the world attending various conferences, and thriving on the adulation and good feelings that come from those experiences of being with the brethren for those brief blocks of time.
What a lifestyle! Think about it.... I must admit I do admire Joe for his ability to keep playing the game and still have enough sheeple to keep the family business afloat even if only "just barely." He's pretty brilliant, if you ask me. Almost as brilliant as HWA.

---JLF's Desertwench still suspicious (and rightly so) of WCG Pastor General Joseph Tkach Jr.

Brass balls, hard ass statement of the day by Koey Koala

2007-01-02T22:30:00.000-08:00

Here we go around the mulberry bush again. Nowhere, not once, not any single place, not one scripture, not one command, not one whisper, not even a whimper or a hint by Jesus or any of the apostles tells us to keep Saturday sabbath, or Sunday sabbath for that matter. Yet, you sabbatarians (Sunday and Saturday) keep focusing on the non-essential, the silence, the non-commands, looking in all the little corners for even just a hint, that might support your Galatanism.
Is taking a Sabbath rest a principle like circumcision? Yes. Is it a command? No. Is there ANY mandate ANYWHERE for Christians to keep Saturday or Sunday? No.
The Gospel is not about any days, or food and drink, or any other physical things. Catholics focus on the physical bread and wine and a physical office of one man, Eastern Orthodox focus on their physical traditions, liberal Protestants focus on their physical social gospel, conservative Protestants focus on their physical touch-not taste-not rules, Pentecostals focus on their physical health-wealth/tongues junk, and Sabbatarians focus on a physical day. All of these things are supposedly Bible based, but way off base.
You are not better, no worse than the rest of the whole Christian church. You distract us from Jesus and HIS commands with silly rules of secondary, no not even tertiary importance.
Instead of wasting your time and mine with arguments about Sabbathing, why not focus on what Jesus actually taught! The disciples were commanded to teach what Jesus taught and so are we. When you command Sabbathing, you actually disobey Jesus, by commanding something he never taught. Yet you accuse the rest of the Church of disobedience for not keeping something that Jesus never taught. Hypocrisy! Blindness! Arrogance! Stupidity! Wake up to yourself man! I wish somebody had told me that 30 years ago! Then maybe I would not have wasted so much time on FRUITLESS legalism.

---Koey Koala bluntly telling telling fellow poster Insights to stop treating the seventh day Sabbath as an essential of Christian faith

Intelligent quote of the day

2007-01-02T22:25:00.000-08:00

My view of evangelicalism is empirical -- another way of saying that it is a pesonal opinion based on personal experience. I find evangelicals stay on the surface of the Bible. They really never delve into theology -- when they do they quickly become lost. (Here I am speaking of evangelicals, in general. Not some of their theologians like Grudem and Geisler.)
They do a lot of sloganeering and use lots of very sanctimonious sounding jargon. In the USA they tend to support the Republican Party without much deep thought. Some of their preachers seem to have borrowed from televangelists in their approach to sermonizing.
Some of the more zealous evangelicals remind me of Armstrongites and seem to be teetering on the verge of falling into legalism and works righteousness.
I like evangelicals as people. I just do not like their approach to understanding Christianity. I have never met a person who asked me the question "Are you saved?" who wasn't weird in some way.

---Neotherm brilliantly discussing the concerns of the "scandal of the evangelical mind "on Mark Tabladillo's Jesus Loves Fellowship message board in 2004

The Wisdom of Hannah

2007-01-02T21:42:00.000-08:00

I am delighted and pleased that many were delighted themselves of an article on the internet I spreaded around. It was the Greek Orthodox view on Heaven and Hell. While the article had many fine points, my main impression that the Greek Orthodox view on the afterlife for believer and non-believer alike puts a very humane face of God Almighty. That He is truly a "nice guy" than the Armstrongites and the rest of the fundamentalists (and sadly some evangelicals) make him out to be. Read and enjoy this essay at http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html . The people at the message board at Worldwide Church of God Alumni like BykerBob, Stingerski and others enjoyed it! Below here is the response from a person on the same message board, named Hannah (but it's not Anne Hana as I was told) who intelligently gives here cents. Everyone else, enjoy!

----Felix

Felix, thanks for the link

There are some things in the link I question, but most of it has served to explain what I have not been able to put in words myself.For me, “Shechinah glory” explains God as the divine spirit, of energy, power, and might that embodies love and mercy.In case any one reads this, I hesitated to enter this thread. I’m not doing it to condemn or defend any ones point ofview.Certain situations in my life has compelled me to give a viewpoint of God I find missing in some posts I’ve read.

The God I have experienced during these unpredictable changes in my life is a patient, merciful, concerned, kind and loving Father who I am learning about more and more.Even as I write this, I am aware that my knowledge of God and why mankind is here on earth must grow in understanding. Mankind has a tendency to look upon God and His attributes and analogue them with what we only understand in this physical world.But that limits the full embodiment of this mighty, glorious Being.How can a mere physical person comprehend God's “Shechinah glory” ?

We have the knowledge and teaching of Jesus Christ to look to.He said when we see Him we see the Father.Yes, Christ did get angry at the Pharisee’s and threw over the money changers table in the temple and with good reason.But the whole context of His message was of love and forgiveness.“ Come unto me ye that are heavy leaden and I will give you rest ““ Father forgive them for they know not what they do”I’ve only encountered a loving, patient, kind and merciful Creator, who has allowed my exploration and knowledge of Him to unfold at a pace that is programmed for me to deal with.

Sometimes I go off the program when I allow the cares of life to overpower me. But this wonderful Heavenly Father has not let me down, even when I’ve faltered.It grieves me when I read someone posting a picture of a vengeful, angry God who is ready to torment someone for eternity.That’s not the loving Father I’ve come to know.Not being a scholar I will have to quote from the link

Quote:

This Energy is the "consuming fire", the Shechinah glory, the fire that burns gold to purify it, as St. Paul writes. It is the fire that burns the weeds left in the field, the fire that burns the pruned branches, it is the lake of divine fire, and the thirst and burning thattorments the Rich Man, is this same Uncreated Energy. Yet, the same fire that torments the impure gives warmth and comfort to the pure of heart.This is the Transforming Light that "makes all things new". Salvation is, in fact, this Energy, assimilating us to God, "divinizing" the believers, making us "Christ-like", through the Energization of the Power of God. When we are in perfect harmony with God, the HolySpirit energizes within us, and we too radiate this Uncreated Light.

The Three Worst Errors of Armstrongism

2007-01-02T19:27:00.000-08:00

Happy New Year ALL!!! May 2007 be a prosperous year in all aspects of your life! Here's an old post written in the previous version of Mark Tabladillo's Jesus Loves Fellowship in 2000 where Mark's friend discusses the three worst errors of Armstrongism in a brief essay. Enjoy your read!

---Felix

Jesus Loves Fellowship (Heb. 10:24-25)

The Three Worst Errors of Armstrongism
Thursday, 24-Aug-2000 02:00:05

207.69.49.22 writes:

(Introduction by MarkTab: Ed Strickland is an old friend from WCGNET and WCGFORUM, maybe XFORUM too -- and he recently circulated this posting about his being more involved in his evangelical church -- I believe he would appreciate your feedback if you want to send him email, and it may make good discussion here because it is a response to a church as part of an evaluation for his teaching ability. If I remember correctly, I believe he got a Master's degree in a seminary in the Orlando or Tampa area.)

Hi all,

The other day I had a meeting with a one of the pastors at Northland Community Church, the church my wife, Mary, and I joined in May. The meeting was to discuss opportunities for ministry there at Northland. It looks like the Lord may open a way for me to be involved in teaching and writing there. I'd appreciate your prayers in that regard.

One thing the pastor asked me to do was to write an essay on what I considered to be three to five of the most dangerous errors of Armstrongism. The purpose was to show him my writing skills and my theological understanding.

I thought some might like to read the essay I wrote for him. So here it is below.

The Three Worst Errors of Armstrongism

Of the many false teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong (HWA), the most dangerous errors would have to be those teachings that either contradicts or seriously compromise the essential truths of the Christian faith, which could effect one's eternal destiny. These most basic truths involve the nature of God, the person and work of Christ, and the means of salvation.

The following three errors are in these areas, and are at the heart of HWA's false "gospel". In 2 Corinthians 11, Paul warned of those who would come with a different gospel, a different Jesus, and a different spirit. This fits the theology of the old Worldwide Church of God under Herbert Armstrong. It's been said that just about every heresy or false teaching begins with a misconception of the nature of God. This is demonstrated in Armstrong's theology. HWA flatly denied the Trinity and taught that God is a family, currently composed of two beings, the Father and the Son. He taught that the Holy Spirit was not the third Person in the Godhead, but rather only the impersonal power of God. He did teach that Christ always existed, but then it gets a
little muddled. When his teaching about God is analyzed, his confusion on this doctrine is shown. At times it sounded like Binitarianism (two persons in one) and sometimes Ditheism (two totally separate gods, a form of polytheism),But the point is that HWA rejected the true Triune God of the Bible. This is a dangerous error, because 1) it is idolatry to have an unbiblical view of God, and 2) to be in error about God's revelation of himself leads to other serious doctrinal errors.

A second major error of Armstrongism is his "gospel". Armstrong claimed that the WCG was the only true church,the only church that knew who and what God is, and the only church that preached the true Gospel. That gospel was what he called "the Good News of the coming kingdom of God". But what he meant by "kingdom of God" was different from what Jesus and the apostles meant. Often biblical terms would be used but with HWA's own meaning.
His "kingdom of God" was the ruling God family into which Christians (WCG members) can be born. He gave thenew birth his own twist. In the gospel according to Armstrong, nobody is born again now, except Jesus. At conversion, the Christian is only begotten as a embryo in the womb of the church, where he grows, finally to be born again at the resurrection. This meant that the kingdom for us is only in the future at Christ's return, and not a present reality. HWA taught that at the second coming of Christ, those resurrected would become literal members of the God family, actually becoming God.

This "gospel" focused on the future time when the enlarged God family would rule the earth during the millennium,and then the universe. The focus of Armstrong's gospel was not the person of Christ, his life, death and resurrection.. He called that a false gospel that all the other churches preached. HWA did believe and teach these things about Christ, but that was not what he said the gospel was. The Armstrong gospel is a dangerous error because 1) minimizes the importance of Jesus Christ and his redemptive work as the center of the Gospel, 2) it elevates man presenting man's ultimate state as being God, which is utterly blasphemous, and 3) since it is a false gospel, it cannot save. Only the true Gospel is the power of God for the salvation of all who believe.

A third major error of Armstrongism is its answer to the important question of what must I do to be saved. Although HWA tried many times to sound orthodox by quoting passages like Eph. 2:8 and saying one is saved by grace through faith, he went on to add the law and works as identifying signs of a true Christian. This was a kind of a "covenantal nomism", the idea that keeping certain laws are a sign of being a part of the true covenant people of God. It was Christ plus Moses. Armstrong confused the old and new covenants by bringing over laws God gave to
Israel and making them binding on Christians. Specifically, he taught that observing the seventh-day Sabbath, the annual feast days and the dietary laws are still required, He also implemented a triple tithing system in the WCG. This addition of the Old Covenant laws to Christ for salvation has been called "A New Galatianism". The Christians at Galatia had been taught the Gospel of grace by Paul. But later some Jewish missionaries came along and told them that it's great that they had received Christ as Savior and Lord, but that wasn't enough. They needed to add the law to Christ. This is what Armstrong did.

The reason this error is so dangerous is that it presents a false way of salvation. When we add to Christ and his work on the cross, we really subtract Christ himself and his grace. Even though HWA would give lip service to salvation by grace through faith, his brand of covenantal nomism easily degenerated into a crass legalism, with the idea of having to "qualify" for one's salvation through law-keeping and building character. There is only one way to be saved. It is by grace alone, through faith alone, because of Christ and his righteousness alone imputed to us.

These are only some of the errors of Armstrongism, but I believe they are the worst ones because they substitute a false God and a false gospel for the truth of scripture, thereby perverting the Word of God and failing to give the right answer to man's greatest need, that of eternal salvation.

Ed Strickland
edstrick@gate.net
Orlando, Florida

Ed Srickland (posted by MarkTab)

Intelligent quote of the day: Pasedena Guy 10 Strikes Again!!!

2006-12-26T15:30:00.000-08:00

Humans are not like animals in that we have a 'soul'. I do not believe that any stillborn or aborted fetus is going to be punished for something they did not do. Armstrongism, like many evangelicals , can't stand the fact that their 'god' may be more merciful than they give him credit for. They have a need to buy into the Calvinist mindset that all are depraved and worthless pieces of cr@p and will NEVER be able to make God love them enough to save them.I also feel that a person that has committed suicide is not punished again for his /her deed. To me God embraces them with the biggest hug they will ever get and tells them that everything is OK now. Armstrongites and evangelicals want their 'god' to stand there before the person and tell them that they are a disgusting sinner that broke one of the ten commandments and there for is @#%$ to the lake of fire for murder. What idiocy!And then to read the comment from that guy where he states that he heard Armstrogites speculating that because a child has never kept the holy days of Herbie then they are @#%$ because they have not proven themselves. More idiocy!

---Pasedena Guy 10's passionate and no nonsense rebuke of those in the extremist splinters of Armstrongism belief in the eternal destiny of the death of the unborn on the Worldwide Church of Alumni message board forum

Special treat from the CBC on the Bible Belt

2006-12-20T22:12:00.000-08:00

Little wonder that I have considered myself a post-evangelical Christian (but not beyond the gospel!) , highly critical of the religious right and extremely suspicious of American religion in general. Look at Mark Kelley's segment on yesterday's The National on CBC. You can go to Mark Kelley's Seven at http://www.cbc.ca/news/media/seven.html or better yet, click for the videos here below!

Episode 3, Dec. 19, 2006.
This week, Mark Kelley spends seven days with evangelical Christians.
Video Part I (Runs 18:18)
Video Part II (Runs 6:18)